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Re: Hi Jimmy,
That's okay, Katray. Better late than never! 
Just like everyone else's thoughts and opinions, yours make perfect sense, and you are obviously passionate in your beliefs. Yes, there does seem to be a lot of contradiction when it comes to what moral lessons people take from the Bible and Christ's teachings, and what they execute in their daily lives. This has probably been going on for centuries. But if almost everything is simply left for people's own interpretations, then everyone's thoughts and opinions can't necessarily be wrong. However, I find it nearly impossible to believe that God would want all Mankind to love each other unconditionally, to follow His doctrine, to care for one another, and then to marry to procreate and carry on His word . . . but then allow two men or two women to "marry." Yes, many of the "benefits" connected to marriage, legal and monetarily, are man-made, but when the Bible clearly states that marriage is between one man and one woman, at the same time denouncing homosexuality, is Man going to once again look the other way and say "Well, it states this, but we're going to do that!" That's how credibility gets lost ( has everyone already forgotten the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah? )
This issue will never have a clear-cut answer, and there are always going to be people on both sides of the aisle arguing these points. But as long as no one is actually harmed in the process . . . air away! 
posted by
JimmyA
on November 18, 2013 at 6:57 AM
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Hi Jimmy,
I was scrolling through your older posts because you always have interesting and enjoyable pieces. So I am late to comment on this one but feel a need to place my 2
cents..:) I wholeheartedly agree with Sinome, she expresses my feelings on the matter perfectly. I would only add a couple of things - looking logically at the
differences between civil unions and marriage, all one sees are man made legal and economic differences; benefits that matter to us humans but I have to wonder if God,
in all His majestic immortality really cares about the distinction.
And Christians contradict themselves all the time; by supporting the killing of innocents via warfare, by supporting policies that hurt and in some cases destroy the weak, poor and very young because of those all too human failings of coveting wealth and/or
desiring more material goods, money, etc. for themselves. And these contradictions, imo, are much more sinful and horrific than supporting love..
Thank you for letting me air my views here!
posted by
Katray2
on November 17, 2013 at 1:23 PM
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Re: Re: Re: I am sorry I missed this until now...
Thanks, Jemmie. See? People can have differences of opinion and still live in harmony. Perhaps more people in our society should join and listen to us in Blog-it land to learn what it is like to have civil conversations, even if it's just agreeing to disagree. Life goes on . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 15, 2013 at 4:54 AM
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Re: Re: I am sorry I missed this until now...
I, too, try to adhere to the Golden Rule (and NOT the version that people tend to think says to "Do Unto Others as They Do Unto You" or the one that says "He Who Has the Gold Makes the Rules"). What kept me from getting angry at your post was that you said that you do agree that everyone should have the right to love whomever they want and that these people, male or female, straight ot not, should also have equal rights. Yes, Civil Unions do give nearly all the same rights to straight couples as they do to homosexual couples, but these couples have shared only vows (which are most certainly sacred). They are not recognized as "married" in the eyes of the law in most states, and therefore are probably still deprived of certain rights we, as straight people, take for granted when we marry.
But I do respect your personal beliefs. And I am thankful you respect mine.
posted by
Jemmie211
on November 14, 2013 at 10:56 PM
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Re: I am sorry I missed this until now...
Thanks for responding, Jemmie, and thanks for keeping the exchange "civil" ( many people tend to get overly upset when certain opinions clash ). And like everyone else's response, everything you've written makes perfect sense. Again, I'm not judging anyone, condemning anyone, or saying that anyone should be denied anything. Yes, it seems that much of the Bible has gone through a myriad of interpretations over the years; some things may still apply, while others had more meaning and significance during the time it was written. Love is love, and I have no problem with anyone willing to share their lives with someone else, for better or for worse. But I just cannot bring myself to call two men or two women "married." That was really my bottom-line point. I guess we all could stand to reread the Bible on occasion, and take from it what we will. As for me, I tend to adhere to the "Golden Rule," and let the chips fall where they may . . . 
posted by
JimmyA
on November 14, 2013 at 1:34 PM
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I am sorry I missed this until now...
I can't say I have an answer for you. But I do believe that God taught us not to judge others. "Judge not lest ye be judged." I am a straight woman. I love my husband and my son with all my heart. While I am able to look upon other women and find them attractive, I cannot imagine ever falling in love with a woman. However, I do feel that my gay and lesbian friends and family do truly love members of the same sex. I feel that love is pure. I cannot find it in my heart to say their love and desire to be married is wrong.
In the Bible, does it not say that divorce is wrong? Does it not say that the person you marry should be the one and only person you ever marry? So to follow this line of thinking, she people who have gotten divorces be unable to remarry? Should widows and widowers be unable to remarry?
I think everything changes with time. . . . even what we take from the Bible.
And now I think it is time I read the Bible once more. It has been a few years since I have done so. (And I, too, took classes studying the Bible--though they were college courses and not through a religious establishment.)
posted by
Jemmie211
on November 13, 2013 at 11:59 PM
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Re:
I think, Utah, that I have read about these people as well. There are those who also believe that at least one of the Lost Tribes of Israel somehow managed to traverse the Atlantic and settle somewhere in North America long before the Vikings or Columbus even thought of their particular voyages. Apparently new evidence supporting this theory surfaces seemingly every other year.
As far as those "books" are concerned, remember that childhood game of "telephone line?" Someone in a group would whisper some sentence or non-sequitor into another person's ear, and have them pass it on. Depending on how many were in the group, usually by the time the final person receives it, the original message has changed considerably. "My cat's name is Mittens" could easily become "Purple monkey dishwasher." Now imagine major blocks of writings and/or verbal tales passing through and amongst thousands of people over thousands of years! Core messages may remain intact, but a lot of personal interpretations are going to be intertwined as well. I think we all know where this is headed . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 11, 2013 at 7:12 AM
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Re: Re: Re:
But the problem, Kabu, is that they do anyway. The ultra-liberals will see to that! And of course the news media will perpetuate it at the same time. It's a lose-lose situation for anyone with even a modicum of decency or common sense . . . 
posted by
JimmyA
on November 11, 2013 at 7:01 AM
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Like I said, there are answers, what is in the good book is true as far as it was translated correctly, but there are other books. I once read a sign posted outside a Baptist Church that read, "Don't pray about the Book of Mormon, that's how they get you" and the sign told the truth. The book is about a family who left Jerusalem before they were carried away as slaves into Babylon. They came to a "Promised Land" where they grew into a great civilization. It just so happens that the time frame Archaeologically fits the Hopewell people of this country who lived and disappeared in and around the Mississippi, and Ohio River valleys. They have dug up stones and small statues in the burial mounds of these "Hopewell People" that were put into the ground 1000 years before Columbus with ancient Hebrew writing on them. One of these stones has the Ten Commandments written on it in ancient Hebrew. The question is, where did the Hebrew writing come from?
posted by
UtahJay
on November 10, 2013 at 6:10 PM
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Re: Re:
and you and I are entitled to not call these unions marriages nor do I think that they should get upset if some Churches and religious groups won't marry them.
posted by
Kabu
on November 10, 2013 at 1:46 PM
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Re:
Very good point, Annicita. Again, I don't intend to condone or condemn anyone. But if such things are left to the interpretations of others, and everyone is allowed their opinion, then I will stand with mine. I have no problems with "civil unions," but will not accept homosexual marriages. Happiness comes in many forms, and everyone is entitled to their own share. But when it comes to titles and monikers, I feel the need to draw the line somewhere . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:42 AM
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Re:
That's true, adnohr. I have no doubt that there probably is no genuine answer to this question, and people are going to have their own opinions and interpretations of it. Again, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone in one direction or another. It's just that, sometimes I see or hear of something that seems contradictory to me, and I get curious as to what others think of it. Everyone is entitled to think what they want, and to feel what they want. Love truly is love . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:38 AM
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Re:
That's okay, Justi. I know this was a difficult question, just as this has been a difficult topic for people to discuss for a long time now. To me, wisdom and logic sometimes walk hand in hand, but I know not everything has a clear-cut answer to it. I think this subject is going to be bantered around for quite some time! Thanks for responding . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:35 AM
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Re:
Thanks, Sinome. And everything you've written makes perfect sense. Again, I have no issues with any two people who love each other, and are there for each other, who also happen to believe in God ( let's not even broach the topic of atheists into this! ). Everyone deserves to be happy, and to share their lives with whomever they please. But there's just something about applying that word "marriage" that is the sticking point for me. It would be nice to live in a world where the universal mantra is "Live and Let Live." Is that possible . . . ?
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:32 AM
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Re:
Not at all, Amanda. Again, I'm not tying to upset anyone or cause any problems. And I know many people have their own thoughts and opinions on this. If you have a "dissertation" on this topic you'd like to share, then by all means drop me a line . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:27 AM
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Re: JimmyA
That is a mouthful, Bill. And you're right. But, if church and state are separated, and homosexuality deemed wrong by one side or the other, than you cannot call their union a "marriage." That's all I'm saying . . . 
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:26 AM
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Re:
I suppose that's one way to look at it, Utah. It seems to me that, by now, many people look upon the Bible as merely a general guide, a list of suggestions to help them sort out their own lives and cope. If that's the case, then any part of it can be left open for personal interpretation. And if that's the case, where do we go from here? Can we simply rely on the Golden Rule, and hope that everyone else does the same . . . ?
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:24 AM
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Re:
Is that so, C C T? So I suppose you people of the British Isles depend on a "deathbed convergence," just in case, huh? Hey, I can be completely indifferent to other people's lifestyle's as well. God knows there are plenty of heterosexuals out there whose practices may be considered less-than-savory. However, there are still certain aspects of this contradiction that puzzle me, and will continue to puzzle me. Life goes on, I guess . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:21 AM
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Re: Jimmy
Good point, Naut. And I believe that some of those beliefs stem from what someone once deemed "blind faith," following a set of laws and rules that may or may not have any actual substantial backing to them. So, is everything open to our own interpretations of them? If that's the case, then what do we believe? Yeah, this probably is an unanswerable question, but it did open a pretty large forum for debate . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:17 AM
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Re: simplicity
Something tells me, serious, if I read you right, that you're more or less agreeing with me. Following those "instructions" handed down from generation to generation may have lost some of their "luster" over the years, but that doesn't necessarily make them any less pertinent. I think I would love to be in your biology class . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:14 AM
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Re:
That's also true, lustor. What's that old saying? "To thine own self be true." I'm not trying to deny these people their right to be happy, and to just be themselves. But something seems to happen when they throw God and religion into the mix that makes it all the more confusing to me. To each his own is fine, but to make God approve of such unions through "marriage" just doesn't make any sense to me . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:10 AM
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Re:
I cannot disagree, Kabu, with anything you've said. And I too never refer to my wife as "my partner." I know for many people homosexuality is something they were born with, and for years they were condemned for acting upon it. Now, as more and more people become tolerant of this group, they can finally have the happiness they deserve. I have no problem with that. However, I will still not refer to them as "married." That's my choice . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:07 AM
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Re:
Indeed it does, FSI. I never condemn or condone anything anyone does, unless it directly hurts someone else. I don't think homosexuals are hurting anyone, and it's certainly their lives to live. But at the same time, I can express my utter indifference without expressing any form of approval or disapproval. I guess this is a quandary people with be bantering back and forth for a long time to come . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:04 AM
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Re:
That's true, TAPS, and very poignant. But it appears that some people are "choosing" a lifestyle that contradicts the religious beliefs that they've also chosen. I believe that everyone has the right to be happy with their own lives, in however it serves them. But at the same time, it appears these same people want their cake and eat it too. And that, I simply don't understand . . .
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 9:00 AM
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Re:
Actually, pricklypear, I think you did quite well with your response. Yes, it does seem that some of the teachings and parables of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, may be somewhat out-dated. People have to find their own "niche" in life, without the outside interference of others. As long as your "lifestyle" does not hurt someone else, I see no need for condemnation. And you say you're "going it alone," but you still have friends, don't you? Isn't there that one person you can rely on from time to time, to give you a ride somewhere or help you move something or talk to when you're feeling down? You don't have to be intimate with this person, but they're still a helpmate of sorts. I simply don't understand people who say "I believe" on the one hand, and then do or think something that seems to contradict that belief on the other hand. I guess Mankind will have to continue his search for the answers to such questions! Thanks for writing. I think we'll have some good exchanges from now on . . . 
posted by
JimmyA
on November 10, 2013 at 8:57 AM
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Why must religion approve it or disapprove of it? The Bible only includes what men decided would be best to include. Changes were made books were deleted. What was written was handed down generation to generation. So don't worry so much what a book says. Look to your heart and realize all deserve to be happy.
posted by
Annicita
on November 10, 2013 at 8:16 AM
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I can't say what religion deems right or wrong. I don't know enough about it. I do believe my grandmother's 'to each its own', and can't really see that a piece of paper makes any difference. Love is love.
posted by
adnohr
on November 10, 2013 at 5:25 AM
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I would prefer to use the word of God to answer. It cannot be done in a comment that I would rely on here. There is not any form of logic to using the word of God. He is above man's mental abilities and this is not based on logic or education but on Wisdom. The beginning of Wisdom is the fear of God. I am not entitled to be man's judge but I can show you clearly and precisly what God has to say about it. I will think about how I can do that.
posted by
Justi
on November 9, 2013 at 9:46 PM
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Jimmy... In a world like ours where there is so much hate and cruelty I think that to damn any kind of love should be unthinkable. Th e many different religions vary tremendously in their rules and regulations but they all have something in common: the belief in One God. They are many ways we humans have chosen to adopt to adore the higher being who we believe to be creator of all that exists... Homosexuals exist and its a logical conclusion to accept they were created by the same God, being that there is only one, Who created us. That being the case and also agreeing that said God is all knowing and does not make mistakes Homosexuals, who are born as such, are as much His children as are we, so therefore they should have the same rights and privileges as all others. That being said, I also believe that the definition of marriage, since the word came into existence and as it is applied to us humans means the union of two people, usually a man and a woman, to form a family and have children. This contract of marriage makes possible that society can depend on its numbers growing and for the children to be cared for as it were. With the ever developing ways of our society, nowadays there are many children without parents looking for caregivers and many childless couples, so adoption comes to the rescue. Now it is possible for couples that can't have children to adopt. That change makes it possible for two same sex individuals to form a "family" as well, and if they are fulfilling the main function of "marriage" why shouldn't they be allowed to be married? Because of semantics? Ridiculous. Jesus was Love and he stood for the underdogs...he scorned the strictness of the old laws and taught us to think of God as our Father... Love is so rare... we should celebrate it in any form not try to find ways to eradicate it because some ancient rules and regulations call for it. Be well my friend xoxoxo
posted by
Sinome
on November 9, 2013 at 5:03 PM
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Hello Jimmy,
My explanation and thoughts on the subject are too long for the comments section. Would you mind if I emailed you privately?
posted by
Amanda__
on November 9, 2013 at 4:42 PM
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JimmyA
Equally it's important that the Consitutional rights that are claimned by both sides both be resopected by each other, that is, a traditional pastor can't marry a same sex couple in the same way that the traditional church doesn't ordain woman ministers, woman offioces in the church notwithstanding. In the same manner that traditional clergy come into contact with woman clergy in the community so will it be with heterosexual and gay couples in the religious and secular domains, according to both belief systems. However, law and church should be separated. In this way churches with a tradition of adaptability based on their hierarchical and open confessional structure can accommodate counter culture. Certainly an attitude of love should accompany contact outside the respective churches that is theirs only in the understanding of the order of marriage ceremony. Both understandings doesn't exclude attendance and ministry, according to Christian love. Indeed agape in classical Greek means this type of love.
This issue should be approached in respect to the intersection of church and state. Clergy should never have to fear arrest in following their traditional practice. This issue should be approached in respect to the intersection of church and state.
posted by
BC-A
on November 9, 2013 at 1:17 PM
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The Bible was changed by Emperor Constantine, the New Testament lost 24 of the known 28 Gospels by the word, thoughts, and prejudice of man, but there are answers out there, and closer than you think. As far as marriage, I always thought it was to give the fruit of marriage a name. When there is no fruit, there is no name needed.
posted by
UtahJay
on November 9, 2013 at 11:45 AM
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Well Jimmy without being persuaded by other cleverer viewpoints .
I don't care a monkey what other folk do.
If they are gay and go hand to Church, I could not care less.
If they believe in a God I am happy for them.
If there is such a Perfection I am sure we little wisps of humanity
would not be made to suffer because of minor flaws in a being. Please let me point out the English are basically not very religious, until they realize they are dying. 
posted by
C_C_T
on November 9, 2013 at 10:34 AM
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Jimmy
The fundamental issue is that questions like this are really unanswerable. To demand logic, intellectual rigor and inner consistency from a doctrine of faith is to employ rules that simply do not apply there. It is so well established that it’s really trivial by now to note that people will strongly believe (and are willing to defend) the most contradictory ‘articles of faith’...And why that is so has to do with the make-up of the mind...
posted by
Nautikos
on November 9, 2013 at 10:01 AM
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simplicity
An intelligence far superior to us supplied us with a recommended set of instructions. The consequences of ignoring those instructions were explained. We were allowed to choose. The natural world instinctively follow the universal laws of nature. Those that truly understand these things, do the same. After we understand, and make a choice, then we are held responsible. Love is love,,, sex is sex. Homosex is not love, nor is it sex.. AND will never be normal... Biology 101
posted by
serioushelpneeded
on November 9, 2013 at 7:47 AM
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I was raised Lutheran and the minister that married two of my gay friends was fired. I really cant answer that questions as I dont like seeing two same sex together as a couple but its their chose. Whatever makes them happy. Even my mom who lived a long life didnt see anything wrong with gays they were created by god and they were born gay so I guess that is my answer. there are so many that try to live the life as a straight person getting married and having kids but then realize that isnt what they want to do.
posted by
Lanetay
on November 9, 2013 at 7:22 AM
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Science...there are people born with homosexual sexuality. it happens at conception or in the womb and i can see no reason why two consenting adults should not love each other. As you say what they do in their private lives is no business of mine.
I agree with you re civil Unions, re benefits etc, I don't even care what they call each other...just so long as no one ever makes me call Wiley my Partner. He is my husband they can call each other late for lunch if they like!
The Bible...is not a scientific book but a wonderful book of myth and truth. the story of a people who lived happy when they kept their eyes on God....the rules in the old Tesament for me became obsolete when a man called Jesus walked the earth and spoke of Love ...Love for self, love for God, love for others. Where there is no love there can be no tolerance.
posted by
Kabu
on November 8, 2013 at 6:27 PM
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What TAPs wrote makes a lot of sense to me.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on November 8, 2013 at 5:35 PM
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Human beings choose what they want to believe and convince themselves of the validity of their beliefs to their lives and to the lifestyle they have already chosen.
posted by
TAPS.
on November 8, 2013 at 12:57 PM
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the floor has been open for a very long time. longer than we may care to realize. there are all sorts of rules and laws in the old testament which if we tried to abide by them we would look and act ridiculous. sorry, i don't have any scripture references or examples but there are plenty believe you me. i do think the bible is very clear that God condemns homosexuality and though i myself have come in and out of the lesbian lifestyle it never sat right with me. i was a very strong spirit filled believer doing those things and my spirit was condeming me. never enjoyed it -- never could. since i have not yet found a partner of the male persuasion i find myself going it alone and i have friends who help me get through tough times and it's really God himself and the indwelling Holy Ghost that are my Comfort and Guide. Counselor is another biblical word for the Holy Spirit. I guess I wouldn't be so close to God if I were dependent on a human being to get me through. That's my lifestyle. Going it alone with God. Not everyone needs a partner and I firmly believe that unrepentant homosexuals will be cast into hell/fire/outer darkness which is where i don't want to go so i'll put up with a little bit of celibacy and allowing the Comforter to live in me. Not the logical response you're looking for but i don't claim to be an apologist. ;
posted by
Carolyn_Moe
on November 8, 2013 at 12:10 PM
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