Go to I WRITE, THEREFORE I AM
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A very complex situation in my opinion Julia
Perhaps she continues because she is helping people and feels motivated to do so, but if I were in her shoes, I would find different venues or forms - probably write a book...:) and I would refrain from giving details that cause emotional/mental distress to others. I hope that's what I would do.
posted by
Katray2
on October 7, 2006 at 8:48 AM
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Forgiveness is a very personal feeling. Maybe she truely has forgiven your
brother, and she's trying (in her way of thinking) to help as many others who went through similiar experiences as she did to find comfort. Or, maybe she hasn't really forgiven him, and the only way to convince herself that she did, is to keep saying that she did.
posted by
bandanafish
on October 6, 2006 at 12:01 PM
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Julia
thats a tough one honey cause you really don't know the woman's motive. I'm sorry for your Mom and family tho as it has to be painful
posted by
MysticGmekeepr
on October 5, 2006 at 4:31 PM
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OOPS
On a lighter note, I added 10 years to my age that I REALLY don't want. I'm only 46. My body feels like it's older, but I just can't add. I'm applying to an accounting job next week, so let's just keep this between us. :)
posted by
terpgirl30
on October 5, 2006 at 2:53 PM
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I've read through some of the comments here - very interesting.
I'd have to agree more with terpgirl30. I've never been anywhere near a situation such as what she and her family experienced, or what you and your family experienced, Julia. For that I am so very thankful. But it seems to me that a murder is something you never recover from, and I would venture to guess that it helps to talk about it on occasion. As well, I'd have to say that I disagree with Whacky on this issue -- I believe it is possible to forgive, but virtually impossible to EVER forget.
I think of the Amish families who lost their little girls. Their religious beliefs instruct them to forgive. And somehow they will forgive the man who killed their daughters. But they will never forget, and I would assume they will be talking and reminiscing over their children for the rest of their lives.
Julia, who knows whether the mother of whom you speak has truly forgiven your brother. Perhaps in her mind she has forgiven him whereby in her more emotional self she feels a need to rehash the whole thing because of her deep loss. Or perhaps, indeed, she brings up the murder out of spite while lying through her teeth about forgiveness. Truly only God knows our hearts, the truth of our claims, and I believe that one day we will all be held accountable for our actions, words and thoughts.
Suffice it to say, there has been tremendous grief and loss on both sides. It is mind bending to me how the acts of only one person can forever change the course of history in the lives of so many people.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on October 5, 2006 at 1:48 PM
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I really do feel for you, Julia, however,
I have to give the other side. You are thinking bad motives of the mother when I'm not so sure that's where it comes from. My grandfather was murdered when I was 12 (44 years ago). We've had the reverse of what you have had. My mom is one of 6 brothers and sisters. The man who killed my grandfather was caught immediately.
The part that catches you in the sheer unnecessary part of his death is that he was dirt poor. My mom slept with her two sisters in one full size bed until she married my dad and moved out. At one point, they had three skirts among the three girls. The guy who shot my grandfather to death had jumped on my grandfather's delivery truck. (He delivered sheets to hotels in the city.) The man's intent was to rob him, of course. Well, he was pissed off because my grandfather didn't have a dime.
After he shot my grandfather, he jumped out of the truck. Luckily, a man was changing a flat tire, chased the guy with the tire iron, then sat on him until the cops came.
The trial was horrific. The man had gotten religion in the jail cell on his way to trial. The attorneys for the man said over and over again that my grandfather had to have provoked the man. Again, my grandfather was in a truck, making stops, and this guy jumped in at an intersection. They didn't know one another.
The point is, how you are saying the mother is still talking about it, so must we. Every so many years, the guy petitions the court saying he got an unfair trial. It has been over 40 years at this point. No doubt he is waiting for that witness to die to see if that will make a difference in the outcome.
The Maryland State's Attorney had to contact my mom and the brothers and sisters to give impact statements---again. I was going to do it this year, to speak of all of the things I didn't get to know and how it changed my mom.
I promise you I'm not saying any of this to make you feel bad, and I so feel for your mom. There are no winners with the families in these cases. God bless all of them. The heartache is unreal. In our case, my mom is being asked to relive it again and again and again. My mom was a strong Catholic, and she really lapsed after that, believing nothing. That breaks my heart. I was raised Catholic but don't see myself as a Catholic now, but for my mom...that was a big part of how she identified herself. It was lost then. Each time this guy calls everyone in again, she relives it all, just like your mother.
So, for those who say it is time to let it go and move on...you heart and mind tells you to do that, and you try. Many times you are not allowed to just because of the circumstances of your life. (In your case, you live in a small town, for example.)
To this day, when we meet up with a man who looks like the murderer, my mom sweats and looks like she's going to faint or run. And I think of my mom as the toughest woman I know in the very real sense of the word. As it has been 40 years, there is no way the man looks this way now. Still, she can't get that out of her mind. And she's a kind, forgiving person.
Sorry, this is getting long, but I hope maybe this puts it out there to you that you are not alone. I'm on the opposite side of the street with it, but I'm still on the same street in terms of feelings, and I know you feel like you are always out there alone with eyes watching your moves. It feels the same way on the other side of the street.
When I turned 18, I had a big death penalty discussion with my mom and asked her if she KNEW this guy had done good things in prison and had really reformed/understood, would she still want the death penalty. Maryland had taken it off the table then. I'm pro death penalty, but I have to tell you, time went on, and I came to the conclusion with this one case, if the man that could make a horrible negative into as much of a positive as he could, I would be okay . It would make the whole thing make sense to me...the death wouldn't be for nothing, etc.
I'm sorry you are having to go through this, but my gut is you always will go through it. I think you would go through it no matter where you moved, as well. If you are a caring, feeling person---and it's obvious you are---you take responsibililty for the wrongdoing of your brother in some ways. (That may not be the exact word for it, but I'm speaking in terms of just how it feels.)
My prayers are with you. I think prayer and good thoughts are all we can give one another with this sort of thing. It doesn't make sense---from either end---and it never will.
Kim
posted by
terpgirl30
on October 5, 2006 at 8:14 AM
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At first I was going to say that many people find that
forgiving the person that hurt them allows them to move on with their lives and is necessary for complete healing. I wonder if this is truly the case here, however, as it is now 30 years on. I'd have thought it time to get on with life rather than rehash the past.
posted by
fionajean
on October 5, 2006 at 5:26 AM
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Julia
I believe this woman is sincere. Perhaps, she lectures on it to keep herself from falling back into the abyss of self-pity.
Forgiveness is a tough row to hoe. I think maybe your mom's unwillingness to forgive herself is the source of her pain.
This is a tragedy that has inherent lessons that can be had no other way. God bless all of you in your struggle to cope with it.
posted by
avant-garde
on October 5, 2006 at 2:25 AM
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I am so sorry
I do understand that this woman suffered deeply but that does not give her the right to make your family suffer over and over again.
This may sound harsh but I tend to wonder about people who forgive the person that took a loved one from them. I am simply not that good of a person and I don't think I could do it. I often feel that these people who come around especially after the assailant is also gone and talk about how they have forgiven that person actually have another agenda.
You and your mother did not commit the crimes nor did you cause them, you should be allowed to live in peace.
posted by
bel_1965
on October 4, 2006 at 8:35 PM
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Sounds like she has done the forgiving but no forgetting.
They usually go together. Sometimes one with out the other is worthless.
posted by
Whacky
on October 4, 2006 at 6:55 PM
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I am so sorry that she keep reinflicting this pain on your family, Julia. I wish I could tell you why, but I can't. Peace be with you...
posted by
lovelyladymonk
on October 4, 2006 at 6:42 PM
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She is taking a sweet revenge by doing all this . Thanks.
posted by
afzal50
on October 4, 2006 at 5:06 PM
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If you need to vent . . . you know where to find me.
*hugs*
posted by
Jemmie211
on October 4, 2006 at 3:15 PM
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She has her motives.
posted by
A-and-B
on October 4, 2006 at 3:14 PM
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I wanted to give you an answer worth reading
But my words are stuck, al I have is a sorry.......and a hug
posted by
_Symphony_
on October 4, 2006 at 2:58 PM
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I should think from what you say your family have been punished enough.
This is a strange form of forgiveness! These are very difficult emotions to deal with, but this course of action I would say was just making a terrible thing worse. Very difficult however you look at it, what a pity you live in the same area, otherwise it might not be so hard.
posted by
nonconformist
on October 4, 2006 at 2:57 PM
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I'm afraid I would have to go with the "enough is enough" camp.
Everybody grieves and everybody heals differently. I also cannot possibly imagine such a devastating loss to her, nor such a devastating blow to you and yours.
But thirty years worth? Enough is enough. She ought to see the pain it causes your mom, who did nothing more than happen to be the mother of a damaged human being, and lay off already -- if she has truly forgiven.
posted by
strat
on October 4, 2006 at 1:58 PM
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Julia, More important than the question of whether or not she has truely forgiven your brother for what he did, is whether or not you have truely forgiven your brother for bringing this into your life. Your forgiveness of him is tantamount to your being able to withstand the pressures it brings upon you.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 4, 2006 at 1:53 PM
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Let's hope
her motives are honorable; the continual healing process and reaching out to other who may need encouragement that healing and forgiveness can take place.
posted by
Troosha
on October 4, 2006 at 12:32 PM
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A very difficult scenario
I am sure that she is not seeking the attention, maybe this is her way to deal with the loss by trying to convey the message of forgiveness to others, but on the same token it must be very difficult for you mom and you to be continually reminded of the incident. My thoughts are with all those effected
posted by
Tanga
on October 4, 2006 at 12:31 PM
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I wonder if it's her way of dealing with the loss of her own child.
I'm sorry for you and your mom, Julia.
posted by
MaggieMae
on October 4, 2006 at 12:22 PM
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Julia., I wonder if this woman still gets some catharsis or meaning out of
these talks. If it's a way of making her daughter's memory matter and have some relevance? Of course, I don't think that anyone's motives are truly pure, and unmixed, she probably does get a measure of attention she's learned to enjoy. Who knows why she does it, but I am sorry that you and your mother have to live with the results.
posted by
Blanche.
on October 4, 2006 at 12:03 PM
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positive--
I just don't
know what is in her heart. only she knows for sure.
posted by
Julia.
on October 4, 2006 at 11:57 AM
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dave--
thanks very much for your comment. Regarding her talks, I ask myself all the time, how much is too much? If she can help some but deeply hurt others in the process, then is it still all good? no it isn't...but still she continues her talks.
posted by
Julia.
on October 4, 2006 at 11:56 AM
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Forgiving is possible. Forgetting is not possible.
If there is any bitterness in her heart, then she has not really forgiven.
posted by
AbsolutelyPositive
on October 4, 2006 at 10:23 AM
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Julia, it's a really tough one this. I don't have a proper answer, really.
That idea of forgiveness in such cases is one I've never really come to terms with myself. I've never experienced anything so extreme, but I can't envisage myself having such a capacity for forgiveness. So I do admire it in others when I see it on the news in the UK. I also admire anyone who can teach that forgiveness to others and show them how it works. Religious leaders can do this, but those with first-hand experience can maybe reach out further.
But then I go the extra step with you and your writings on this and I'm shown the pain of the mother and sister of the perpetrator and I find myself thinking she should stop her talks. I find myself asking the exact same questions: How much is altruism? How much is too much? How much tips over into vengefulness?
Then you add in the smallness of the community, the inescapability of it all, the fact that even a no-names policy wouldn't prevent the clear reminding of who and what and when.
I have no answers. I know you better, so I feel your pain more. I hope it helps to write about it as you do and that the catharsis increases your own healing.
posted by
_dave_says_ack_
on October 4, 2006 at 10:04 AM
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