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why things have changed the last 30 years
In short, certain behaviors are no longer considered taboo. When I was 17, I lived in deadly fear of pregnancy. Now... that fear is unwarranted. Our tolerance level has gotten higher, for good and for worse. Interesting to note, that my brother and I were also brought up in a non-religious household (my parents lived through Nazism in Poland and Europe and they were not having any of that), and, our neighborhood being rough, we were the only kids on the block who never got into serious trouble. I think there is a correlation: when you are responsible for yourself and your actions, you take them very seriously.
posted by
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
on September 19, 2004 at 10:23 AM
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What "secular society"
is BeachBelle refering to? Would that be Europe where they were (are) steeped in Christianity for nearly 1700 years and where all their customs were established by the papacy and order of the Catholic Church? Would it be Russia, a country oppressed by Orthodox Christianity long before Marx and Stalin changed the focus of power from Church to State, still denying the citizens self-government and autonomy? Would it be in the Middle East where Islam is the Government and has been the rule of law for 1500 years? How about Asia? Buddhism, Taoism, Confucism have long possessed the people with denial of the self and promises of perfection in the attainment of self-less-ness called nirvanah (much of Christianity comes from Buddah). Would you find your secular society in the African nations? Not likely, since they were colonized by Europe centuries ago or conqured by Arabic muslims and infused with Islam. South America as well, even before Europeans brought Christianity, they were practicing ritual sacrifice to apease God.
We are centuries away from any real "secular" society--the liberation of humanity from the traditions of religion must be had first and then generations must pass away without the familial indoctrination of religion imposed on the children in the home. Knowledge is the liberator, but unless we educate our children concering religion as mythology, including Christianity, Judism, Islam and any other ideology (athiest also, since they don't know beginnings or endings either or where we came from if that really matters) we will never be able to know humanity in its true nature and if the causes of abuse are innate or designed through religion.
Peace,
FR
posted by
freerain
on September 16, 2004 at 3:21 PM
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B-belle
And I am not saying that all the cases I know of where straight out rebellion. There was peer pressure (A big influence on me at the time, I will admit) and all that as well. But I did see a pattern that the ones who had hte most religion put on them by their families were the ones who would do the most, often seeming to want to get caught just to be able to get their parents that way. There were those who had really crappy home live, but even there I remember a level of religion in those families that seemed to be more important to those parents than their children.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 16, 2004 at 7:49 AM
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David
Alwasy nice to hear from you.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 16, 2004 at 7:45 AM
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kooka
The generalization is not to say that it applies in all cases. I accept that you have not done that. The generalization is to base the entire case on your own experience. Chances are that if you had little to rebel against - ie you did not have a religious background - that your perceptions are influenced by that.
I understand entirely what you are saying. I too, had no reason to rebel as no strong doctrine was imposed upon me. However, to generalize myself for a moment I knew plenty of people who were in gangs, who did drugs, and had teenage pregnancies. In most cases these people did not get involved in these behaviors out of a desire to rebel but a desire to be loved or approved off by their peers.
Peer group pressure is a powerful force often far more powerful than parental pressure
posted by
beachbelle
on September 16, 2004 at 7:26 AM
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kooka
I got to your post pretty late (as usual), and I see that you certainly got some "attention" for it. But as always, you managed to prove to me why I like coming here and reading what you have to say! And the way you say it! As for comments on the post, I can't say anything that
aardvark,
westwend, and
freerain haven't already said!
posted by
David1Spirit
on September 16, 2004 at 7:16 AM
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b-belle
I do everything I can to stay away form generalizations.
I never said this was try for all cases. As I tried to explain to Ody, I would say about 90% of all the pregnant teenagers I have known come from strong religious background (The other 10% I just do not know for sure, they might) most of the being catholic. All the gang members I have ever known have had a belief in God and they either wore crosses or gotten religious icons tattooed on themselves. Out of the group I associated with who were into drug a good 75% justified what they did by saying it was not in the Bible.
As I also explained to Ody, this was ten years ago. But I do talk to people who still have involvement in that area and they tell me that those patterns are still there.
One thing people need to look at is the fact that 85% of hte population claims to be Christian. By that it only makes sense that the majority of people in any given situation are going to be a large part Christian most of the time. What this really says is it not due to any lack of faith that we have these problems and it is pure arrogance whenever a Christian tries to claim otherwise. The problems come from other areas. To try and say we need to force religious values on others to solve the problem should obviously be the wrong the path. There is proof that the forcing of those beliefs is often what leads to the creation of said problems to begin with. OF all the people i have known, the atheist are the ones who lived hte cleanest lives during their teenage years, and if you ask them it is because they had nothing to rebel against. What little rebelling I did was not because I was rebelling against anything, but because I wanted the experience, but I was never willing to cross certain lines that I saw way too many others cross because they had a lot to rebel against and most of it was related to religion in some way.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 16, 2004 at 7:06 AM
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Of course your aspirations for the raising of your children are admirable
however the problems you speak of - teenage pregnancy, drugs and gangs are no less prevalent in secular societies. I appreciate too that you are only claim to speak from your own experience but be wary of generalizations - more evidence is required.
posted by
beachbelle
on September 16, 2004 at 6:45 AM
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great minds think alike
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 16, 2004 at 6:22 AM
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jollyjeff
Thank you.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 15, 2004 at 4:57 PM
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This post is well thought out and well written
as usual. Even though I am not an atheist, I really enjoy your posts, they always make me think.
posted by
jollyjeff
on September 15, 2004 at 4:21 PM
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And westwend
Even though I think your comments may often have a personal level to them, I still am glad to hear you say such stuff.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 15, 2004 at 2:18 PM
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aardvark
Thank you.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 15, 2004 at 2:17 PM
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Y-L-F
I disagree. My wife and I had a great sex life with each other years before we got married. If two consenting adults wish to engage in sexual activity, there is nothing wrong with that. It is when sex is used for control or forced on someone, both of which can and do happen in a marraige when that relationship is unhealthy, then becomeswrong. I would never call it evil. Evil is too strong a word for it. Prematitial sex can be great, I know I enjoyed it and I feel no shame for having done it.
In fact I see a level of health in having sex before marraige. I do beleive there is a young lady here on Blogit who is only getting married because she wants to have sex. I have read her posts from time to time and I do believe she would risk a very unhappy marriage just so she can get laid. I do not know if her marriage will be unhappy or not, but she is getting married mostly just so she can finally have sex. From having read her posts I do believe that she would be in much better shape mentally if she did not have the sex thing hanging over her. She would be able to make better choices if she were no longer a virgin and be able to clearly see what she wants in life. My wife and I were together for about three years before we decided to get married and were sexual active the whole time. We have a true relationship because we got to know each other and we also were able to enjoy each other without feeling that we had been forced into a relationship for that enjoyment.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 15, 2004 at 2:16 PM
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freerain
Wow, thank you.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 15, 2004 at 1:52 PM
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Why are people so very, very, very, very STUPID?
Sex is not evil.
Sex is for the marriage relationship. It's only evil
outside of that relationship. You know, it's that little expression of that little thing in our dictionary called "love"...
posted by
TARZANA
on September 15, 2004 at 1:47 PM
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Brilliant Mind, Wise Father
Your post gives me hope for humanity, Kooka, you are a model citizen and father. When I came out of the darkness of Christianity and stood in the light of reality, my joy in living expanded beyond my puny existence to encompase the whole living Universe. Thanks to G. James Stewart, my first contact with rational thought, I was able to see the deceit and lies in my belief system which imprissoned me in my mind, spirit and body. It is great to be free! My family shut me out, my sister saying directly she didn't want to know about anything that would threaten her faith--my mother "killed" me off (must be a throwback to some lost jewish tradition) and my children wanted me to stop "relating everything to religion" as the source of all the "ducked-up" things in the world. But, hey, when reality bites it changes everything you ever learned to "believe" and you can never go back to the imaginary realm of blood sacrifice for redemption and cannibalism for salvation. Keep up the wonderful work--you are proof that man is not corrupt in his nature, but that his nature has been corrupted by the infection of religion.
Peace,
FR
posted by
freerain
on September 15, 2004 at 12:38 PM
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my god i'm proud of you.
you are a great thinker.
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 15, 2004 at 12:13 PM
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I love your last 3 paragraphs.
I don't see religion as either as purely positive or negative. There are great teachings in the world's religions, but there is also a bunch of dogmatic authoritarianism that mutes it's potential for good.
I enjoy reading you.
posted by
aardvark
on September 15, 2004 at 10:52 AM
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