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Interesting post. I enjoy reading and following this discourse between you and Anib.

posted by RPresta on July 13, 2017 at 9:01 PM | link to this | reply

Re: And another parallel in the New Testament...

Very true and elevating example of God's revealing Himself. There is a cycle here too. Whenever unrighteousness becomes rampant and righteousness is put to shame, he comes to restore order by manifesting himself in human form, one age after another. 

posted by anib on July 11, 2017 at 9:55 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Anib to GM

The episode is not another but a reply to your earlier query on moral issues. We may find many things not in accordance with what we think should be or should have been. The author Veda Vyasa was the guru of all gurus, and he alone knew how the story will attain to great heights for future generations to take lessons from. One important Q you ask is why with Krishna with all powers at his command could not change the course of action? The reason is that in his human incarnation, there are certain human Laws he had to follow. The spheres and the range of his action then does not remain under the purview of divine Will, and, at the same time, his ingenuity, presence of mind, his humour, his composure, all, crosses borders of human limitations. Over and above these events again, are so orchestrated as to be cemented examples for mankind's future education. The ultimate aim of any literature is to provide pleasure (exemplary too, on occasions). I am therefore, concerned more with the essentials than the accidentals. Cheers you sure make me think, good you do, it makes things clearer for my deeper understanding.  Thanks.

posted by anib on July 11, 2017 at 9:48 PM | link to this | reply

And another parallel in the New Testament...

..... when Jesus revealed himself to Paul,  on the road to Damascus,  where Paul was going to kill or persecute more Christians.  By this revealing,  a murdering predator was turned into a faithful and loving apostle of Christ.  It seems to me,  that God should reveal himself to people more often.

posted by GoldenMean on July 11, 2017 at 8:14 AM | link to this | reply

There is one parallel, however.....

Moses had doubts and questions,  as did Arjuna.  Krishna revealing his true cosmic appearance to Arjuna on the battlefield,  reminds me of God manifesting himself to Moses as a brightly burning bush that is not consumed.  These revealings showed both Arjuna and Moses that they were really dealing with a cosmic superior.  I wish that God would do such things more often,  so that more people would be wakened from their spiritual slumber and discouragement and delusion.  Cheers 

posted by GoldenMean on July 11, 2017 at 6:15 AM | link to this | reply


Here you tell of yet another episode,  in this Sabha Court,  where Krishna tried to defeat the evil Kauravas and uphold the righteousness (Dharma) of the Pandavas.  But somehow,  even with Krishna on their side,  the Pandavas lost the case in court??  How could this be?  And so then,  the righteous Pandavas were drawn into a game of chess,  which they could not refuse? 

I must ask,  why couldn't they refuse it?  I would refuse it,  because I would know it would be rigged,  because of the extreme level of predatory evil exhibited by the Kauravas.  Or,  if I agreed to the chess game,  I would be planning a secret attack,  or secret assassination of the Kuaravas,  just at the very moment that they declared victory in the rigged chess game.  But instead,  the Pandavas engage in the chess game as if it were legitimate, and they accept its result.  To me, this is very naive and foolish.  

It seems that Lord Krishna could use a dose of decisive action,  to stop the predation of the tyrant Kuaravas,  to cut off the head of evil,  instead of letting it slither around too long and spread its poison too far.  This conflict could have been ended much sooner,  than allowing it to progress to the horror of war.  Krishna is giving far too much freedom of will and freedom of action to the agents of pure predatory evil. 

As I have said in my blogs,  justice delayed is not justice at all.....  it is instead a gross and flagrant injustice.  Justice is only as effective as it is swift.  Any delay in the enforcement of justice is a great tragedy and travesty. 

There is some element of divine deception here,  and not just in the Hindu religion,  but in all religions.  I have been very critical of the Christian religion,  but now I must turn the same standards of morality upon the Hindu religion and its writings.  I must do this,  to be true to my own convictions.   

Krisha could take a lesson from Yahweh of the Old Testament,  who did not hesitate to kill the evil predators himself,  or to send the Hebrews into battle hopelessly outnumbered,  but with the faith and confidence that God would multiply their strength a thousandfold.  Every time the Hebrews trusted God in battle,  they had great victories.  Most of the heroes of the Old Testament never doubted God,  as Arjuna doubted what Krishna had repeatedly tried to teach him.  When it comes to faith in God,  the heroes of the Old Testament,  such as Abraham,  Isaac,  Joseph,  Moses,  Joshua, and the judges and prophets after them,  seem to have a superior faith to that of Arjuna and his brothers.  Cheers     

posted by GoldenMean on July 10, 2017 at 11:53 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Anib to GM

Two interesting observations you've made. Krishna, knowing what would be the final outcome, beacause he knew Duryadhane too well to anticipate his reaction, made this as a last (final) offer of just five villages. He had earlier argued in the Sabha, Court, supported by the elders Bhishma, Drona and Vidur - the master of Neeti Shashtra, legal laws, that the empire rightfully belonged to the Pandavas. But they (Pandavas) were drawn by deceit and challenged into a game of chess which couldn't be refused. I this mentioned earlier, with the Pandavas losing their entire fortunes including the fiery beautiful wife of the brothers, Draupadi, who they, the Kauravas tried to publicly disrobe and denude her in public (court) view, but couldn't eventually, due to Krishna divine intervention. This led to Draupadi's taking a vow that she will not do her beautiful long hair (a custom of culture in India) unless she has washed them with the blood of Dushyashana (his heart ripped open by bare hands in the battlefield as Bheem had promised), younger brother of Duryadhana. For Arjuna and his brothers no reminder could have been greater than this.   The Mahabharata does not leave an iota of gap open anywhere. Cheers 

posted by anib on July 10, 2017 at 9:52 PM | link to this | reply


Thanks for reading,  and I am glad you liked the tank video!  I can't believe I actually like that rapper music,  but it is perfect for that video.  Cheers 

posted by GoldenMean on July 10, 2017 at 6:00 AM | link to this | reply


I am glad that Krishna addressed the moral issues before the battle,  trying to settle with the Kaurava usurpers,  but Krishna's proposal of 5 cities was very unfair to Arjuna and would leave the Kauravas in power, with continued conflict virtually guaranteed.  It was an immoral proposal, presented as a moral proposal. 

On the battlefield,  when Arjuna saw his kin on the other side,  Krishna could have at least reminded Arjuna of the crimes and evil these kinsmen had committed against Arjuna,  against  his other kin,  and against the whole country. 

posted by GoldenMean on July 10, 2017 at 5:58 AM | link to this | reply


Interesting as always - especially since you clearly know more about these matters than I do! Mind you, there are a few 'interpretations' I would disagree with...And that tank video is great!

posted by Nautikos on July 9, 2017 at 9:31 PM | link to this | reply

Superfluous, it should be. 

posted by anib on July 9, 2017 at 12:54 AM | link to this | reply

Dear friend, GM

A very fine and informative post indeed, and you have been able to incorporate a lot of   issues not seemingly concurrent with logic. I'll try to argue a bit otherwise. The 18 chapter Geeta is only an infinitesimal, but most important, part of the Mahabharata; in its sixth volume it (Bhagavat Gita) finds mention only from chapters 23 to 40. That the moral issues was excluded by Krishna is not true. Krishna, prior to the start of the battle, acted as a peace messenger or mediator to make Kauravas understand as to why should the war be avoided giving them a picture of the horrible scenes of death and destruction, and decay to the decimation of an entire age. He even pleaded with the Kauravas that they take the entire kingdom, save only five small villages to leave for the Pandavas. Duryodhana mocked at Krishna wanting to take him a captive (which, of course, Krishna asked him to give it a try) for giving moral lessons, and said, 'what to talk office villages I'll not let them land even the size of a needlepoint'. The discussions when it came to a stalemate and no recourse was left open, the War was resorted to. 

Just on a thought on the spur of the moment, today being Sunday I can spent time writing. Why do I not write on what lofty moral lessons are to be learnt from Yudhishtira's exchange with Yamaraja, the God of Death, his father, here referred to as Yaksha. Arjuna was thoroughly learned himself on moral aspects of Dharma, ethics and principles he learnt from his eldest brother, Yudhishtira. So, Krishna's discourse on this topic would have simply appeared repetitive and superfuous. I wish that you honestly tell me whether this answer should suffice? When we look at them isolatedly we tend to err. Look out for my article on Morals, like Wordsworth's Expostulation and Reply in the evening maybe? Thanks and Cheers 

posted by anib on July 9, 2017 at 12:50 AM | link to this | reply

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