Go to The Reverend Kooka Speaks About Religious Bulls#!t
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DREAH has it right
You make sure they have the knowledge when they are at the right age to understand it. But you do not force it on them. There is a big difference between learning for the sake of understanding the world to be able to live in it and being told how to think. It is natural that a lot of the parent's beliefs will influence the child, but it does not need to be forced on them.
Religion should be treated the same way. When they ask questions answer them honestly. But they should not find various religious influence where they do not belong. if they wish to go to a church or talk to someone about religion, fine. But if they are going to a government building they should not get the impression that they are going to have to live up to religious standards. The only other solutions would be to include symbols and texts from ever religion in the country in any government building that wishes to post such things as the ten commandments, which I have no problem with that idea, but it would be costly and take up much space. Then if you miss one, such as the Satanist (Which I am sure many people will get upset if a Satanist symbol is displayed in a government building) you would either have to remove all or find a way to include them.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 29, 2003 at 11:59 AM
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kooka, pg scott
as parent educators my husband and I believe that children should at the very least be made aware of all things..age appropriately... even the things mentioned by pgscott, as well as the extreme opposite of these things so that they can form their own opinions....
The operative words here are age appropriately.
posted by
homegirl
on December 28, 2003 at 5:13 PM
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Kooka
children do not have 'minds of their own', if they did, what need for education? That is what education is for. If you teach them that the bible is the truth, then that is what they will believe. If you teach them that truth is relative, that all beliefs are equally valid, then that is likewise what they will believe. In the first, you will have created a Christian, in the second, a liberal.
Nobody believes in exposing their children to as much as possible. Do you believe in exposing your children to Neo-Nazi propaganda and 'allowing' them to make up their own minds? What about child porngraphy? The ideas taught to children are selected by those who control education, there is no such thing as education without selection. Can you do something about that? Yes of course. You can endevour to influence education policy so as change the selection policy. But you will never rid education of selection bias of some sort or another - for that is what education is.
posted by
pg_scott
on December 28, 2003 at 4:37 PM
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Crosby Stills Nash Toung sais it best
Teach your children well. Equip them with filters, not with blockers.
posted by
cantey
on December 28, 2003 at 1:59 PM
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pg scott
So you are saying that no matter what in life things are forced on you and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
BS back at you.
Most things in life you can choose not to be exposed to. I do not smoke and I do not go to places where I know there will be a lot of smokers. I can not stand the smell and I have problems breathing in smoke filled rooms. So like I said, I avoid it when I know of places where it will be. It does not get forced on my, except the few times when some idiots just lights up on the street, but that is no in an enclosed space, so it is easy to ignore and move on. I am no t interested in smoking nor do I want to be exposed to it at all.
I could easily find many more such topics to go into to show that it is not set so other people's beliefs and such are not forced on you.
Religion should be treated the same. Go a head and practice it in the churches and your own personal homes, but do not try to put it in places where people like myself cannot avoid it if we choose.
As for you idea that liberalism is being forced upon them, I think you are confusing liberalism with freedom of choice. You quote was 'having a liberal education which teaches and exposes their children to as many different beliefs and ideas, is having the untruth forced upon them and their children.' No, it is the truth of how the world is being taught to them. They have minds of their own after all. The horror of teaching children that there are many different ideas out there must just be so terrible for these brainwashed Christians. After all that might get them thinking for themselves and they might see the world in a different way than their parents. Oh no, they might use their own brains to decided what they believe in. How awful.
I fully believe in exposing people to as much as possible in their teachings. Otherwise all you get are brainwashed zombies, generation after generation. Although that is what the church wants.
You are just using Liberals as an escape goat. You can just point your finger at them and say 'look what they are doing to our kids by exposing them to the world'. Instead of admitting that the church does not like the possibility of loosing its power over them. And that is what it all comes down to. If the church were to have an open exchange of ideas and teach children to look at other religions and beliefs, then it would start to fall apart as more and more children grew-up to see the flaws in the church and leave it. I have compared religion to drug addiction in the past, well the church is the dealer and it would be out of business if it couldn't get new customers every generation.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 28, 2003 at 9:31 AM
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Kooka
and what is the alternate to having religion forced upon you? Having liberalism forced upon you? The fact is you are going to have something forced upon you whether you realise it or not.
Liberals believe that all children should be exposed to the 'marketplace of ideas' without authoritive selection - that I am afraid, to put it bluntly, is just sheer bullshit. You cannot have education without authoritive selection of some sort or another. For people who believe in Christianity and who believe it to be the truth, having a liberal education which teaches and exposes their children to as many different beliefs and ideas, is having the untruth forced upon them and their children.
If liberalism does not feel like it is being forced upon you, that is because you are essential liberal. Christians feel differently - and have every right to, for liberalism is being forced upon them and their children.
The seperation of Church and state is in essence a masterstroke of genuis whereby the state says to the Christian (any all religions can be included) you are free to believe anything you want, so long as you do not act upon it.
posted by
pg_scott
on December 28, 2003 at 6:26 AM
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cantey
I have tried to see it that way, but at the same time there is a big problem with that. I have read several peices by Christians who have used the fact that the Constitution has the phrase 'God given' in it to say that we are a Christian scociety. And have gone on to defend the idea of placing relgion everywhere. It is thoughts like that which make me think it is best to remove any references to God, no matter the implications. There are groups who will use that to try and force their views on others.
A for the commandment thing. To me it did not belong there. It is a direct relgious referance. It matters not that the rules are good (Although most civilizations came up with those same basic rules. Some all on their own without the commandments due to the simple fact that those rules are needed for civilization to fuction) but the simple fact is that you can not say there is no relgion behind them. The first two commandments are nothing but pure relgion and should not be dispalyed in any way that might make it look like the governemnt favors them.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 27, 2003 at 2:57 PM
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Another way to look at this issue
is to remember that the word 'god' does not necessarily imply Jesus Christ. It does not say ' in Jesus or Christianity we trust'. God can mean anything, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Satan or the wife and kids and career. Even some dumb rock. it does not imply in and of itself any specific religion. It is people in there offense that construe it into the God of Christianity. The word itself is innocent In this country we have the unique privilege, as you know, to practice any religion and openly worship any god we choose. It is a freedom that we enjoy and is coveted and hated by many people in other parts of the world and a huge reason why thousands of people migrate to this country. I think a less cynical way to look at this 'in god we trust' on the money, and ' one nation under god' issue is it is a reflection and an affirmation of the 1st Amendment, if you keep it in the line of thinking that 'god ' can mean any religion. It could be viewed as a proud affirmation of this wonderful and unique freedom that we take for granted. This should satisfy peoples of all religions in this nation and even atheists. Frankly some atheists just need to lighten up. The reason why I am stating this is not because I am a Christian and I don't want these phrases removed for precisly that reason. Im not even saying that removing these phrases would be unconstitutional. I am just presenting a different way of looking at it apart from any religious bias that is I believe less cynical of and offended by the harmless word ' god'. As far as the ' ten commandments' thing goes, isn't every single law in this land either directly or indirectly based on at least 4 of those 10 laws.Out of the other 6, 4 are just good moral common sense and the other two are harmless. Whats the big deal? The frickin monument isn't preaching to anybody. Ah, but nobodys gonna look at it that way.
posted by
cantey
on December 27, 2003 at 1:23 PM
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