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I think statements should never be made unless there is a means to demonstrate that they do or do not exist! If a document, i.e. Koran addresses wife beating then there will be those who will use and those who will abuse it! In either case it is just wrong for me! Shelly
posted by
sam444
on March 11, 2010 at 12:49 AM
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Islam is not alone in certan attitudes toward women.
Read the Book of Leviticus.
Then there are the letters of Paul admonishing women to be keepers as home, to submit themselves to their husbands, to wear a covering when praying, and to be silent in churches -- to ask their husbands if they had any questions. So where do women who claim to be Christians and obedient to the Word of God get off making statements of religion on Blogit? Shouldn't it be their husbands who do that?
Women were second class citizens in Paul's time. His writings reflect that.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 8, 2010 at 10:10 AM
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A link to the article/my post (and observations...:)
http://www.blogit.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/katray6813/649802
posted by
Katray2
on March 8, 2010 at 8:18 AM
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A little sidebar of my mixed feelings in continuing this debate:
the risks of Persecution - the natural progression of singling out any religion, culture, people, etc. for collective, ceaseless and baseless condemnation.
...then again, I am but a peon in the bigger scheme, less than a grain of sand compared to the lessons of: History - proof positive of the wrongness in doing so. (see above)
I am traveling at the moment and my computer usage is limited, but I will be back Monday with perhaps an expanded response...I just discovered an article that I think you will find interesting, but not for the same reasons I do..:)
posted by
Katray2
on March 6, 2010 at 10:01 PM
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I am impressed with the vast array of facts you use to prove your point. You are a fine researcher.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on March 6, 2010 at 8:32 PM
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Nautikos
I can't help but see you as 'the camel that got his nose into the tent and then followed it in' and learned all there is to learn about Islam. Always a fascinating read my friend but you'll get no debate from me, but I do enjoy your writing my friend,
posted by
WileyJohn
on March 6, 2010 at 6:18 PM
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Funny, I don't feel pulverized, sorry to disappoint, lol...
Dear Naut, I am heartened that you have admitted other religions, Christianity namely, do indeed promote brutality and violence via their text and that the Koran contains moderating and humane passages too, along with clear as day radical ones.
On one level, I am baffled that you believe Islam is the one and only pathological religion, but obviously you cannot fathom my perspective either, for whatever reasons involved; fair enough, I think we both realize the entrenchment of our respective positions.
You know, we could trade translations ad infinitum (the example I posted came from an e mail from a Muslim acquaintance; her husband does speak and write Arabic, but I can't verify or source where the body of the information came from; my bad for not explaining) and it wouldn't change the fact that it is - ready for this again??..:) -
the interpretation by the individual practicing the religion which matters -
posted by
Katray2
on March 6, 2010 at 5:18 PM
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I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said: " Be sure you put your feet in the right place before you decide to stand firm" or something to that effect. Sometimes one tries to defend a cause that is lost before one begins to defend it, and no matter how much passion and time and good intentions one might have... failure is the obvious end result of the endeavor. Of course it does not help if the person doing the defending is grasping at straws and is faced with a knowledgeable, seasoned and extremely intelligent opponent as you are Naut. Again you have stated your points clearly and pulvorized the criticism of your position. As you state so well, the knowing or not knowing Arabic has no bearing on this debate since the majority of Muslims do not speak it... I do have some knowledge of Arabic, but I have never read the Koran in its original language... I don't even know if the original language in which it was writhen its modern Arabic... I doubt it... but that does not matter, what matters is that it is aparently full of bad advice and outright lies... now, as old Abe also said : "You can fool the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but you can not fool all of the people all the time" and I am sure many Muslims have become wise to the discrepancies of their sacred text and have made the appropriate mental corrections... as have Jews , Christians and all other faithful, the problem is , as I see it, the minority that follow the book vervatum... but I truly , except what I have learned in here reading you ( and for which I thank you :-) ) do not know much about this subject , so I feel Its better if I refrain from commenting on it. Quoting Lincoln again ( I am staying with one guy for my quotes to make it easy for you to cross check them loll ) "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" loll As per what is happening to your oponents in this debate loll the old guy truly knew his stuff... Anyway Naut, thanks for another interesting and informative post... even when you are debunking your critics you manage to teach us stuff :-) Be well my friend xoxoxo
posted by
Sinome
on March 6, 2010 at 12:58 PM
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