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- Go to Islamo-Fascism: The Veiled Presence…Part XVIII
I do know the Holy Bible and it is about folks surviving those that would overtake them and put them in bondage! But, the New Testament is the part that most should concern themselves with because it is about abandoning the old ways and loving one another even to our enemies! Shelly
posted by
sam444
on March 11, 2010 at 12:26 AM
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As you know, I'm not much interested in being a part of a debate, but I'm still finding this blog very interesting to read.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 4, 2010 at 8:43 AM
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A Well Written Arguement/Debate
posted by
StrickGold
on March 3, 2010 at 12:16 PM
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One more thing - well maybe two..or three..:)
*Naut, you asked:
*(And, incidentally, in your ‘perusal’ of the Koran, did you get to the part where wife-beating is allowed? And if you think that’s just my interpretation, what’s yours?)
*More shades of gray, which you and some of your readers love, lol:
The Arabic word used in Verse 4:34 (the verse which supposedly alludes to wife beating) is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The issue with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit". The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them.
"Allah used the word "daraba" in Verse 14:24 "Seest thou not how Allah sets (daraba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". "daraba" here meant "give an example"."
"Allah also used the word "darabtum", which is derived from the word "daraba" in Verse 4:94, which mean to "go abroad" in the sake of Allah:
"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: 'Thou art none of a Believer!' Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favors: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Quran, 4:94)" "
So "daraba" literally means "beat", or "go abroad", or "give" but not in the sense to give something by hand, but rather to give or provide an example.
Important Note: 4 He used "daraba (4:34" and "darabtum (4:94)", which are both derived from the same root. He used both words in the same Chapter.
*Now these are interesting because you seem to imply that every passage in the Koran that reads as violent, extremist, etc. has no opposite passage to suggest there is more than one way - black and white thoughts again - to interpret it:
Koran Verses and Sayings that support the prohibition of any type of wife beating:
The following Verses and Sayings from the Quran and Prophet Muhammad respectively seem to very well support the above interpretation:
"...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Quran, 2:231)"
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)" "
"Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)" "
"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)" "
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Quran, 4:19)"
"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Quran 30:21)"
*I would like to clarify something - I did not call you prejudiced or a hypocrite; I simply pointed out that your writings could be perceived as such if you do not present all angles of the argument. There is a difference between appearance and actually being. In any discussion, no matter how heated, I do not believe in personal negativism.
posted by
Katray2
on March 3, 2010 at 7:05 AM
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Another thought provoking read.
As always.
posted by
Hackthorne19
on March 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM
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Hi, Naut- I'm catching up on my Blogit reading and of course I'm captivated by your posts. You know where I stand on the issue at hand - and appreciate such intelligent and scholarly support. I just regret I don't read the Jerusalem Post more....Mal
posted by
gapcohen
on March 2, 2010 at 6:20 PM
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Nautikos
Wiley was here, always an interesting read my friend.
posted by
WileyJohn
on March 2, 2010 at 5:11 PM
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I myself do feel that these posts are necessary. When it comes to Islam I do feel that the media dances around the issues.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on March 2, 2010 at 4:52 PM
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Islam is one of several major religions, all of which have bloody histories and their fair share of extremist, violent interpretations - that word again, which you choose to dismiss even though it is at the core of the issue. Yet you declare Islam is set apart, pathological to use your word and deserving of collective condemnation and biased treatment of it's followers - reform or face invasion of religious privacy is what I believe you are calling for. If I'm incorrect, my apology in advance. But, in your view the other religions are to be exempt from such tyranny and that is why they pertain to this discussion, because that stance is hypocrisy at it's most glaring and obvious fullness - the other religions exempt from critical scrutiny and damnation for reasons I'm well aware of. Or should I say reason, singular - Israel and it's quest for dominance in the Middle East, which you are a supporter of. Not being negative about it; freedom of belief is a wonderful thing.
I won't go into the Middle East subject too deeply, for it is a complex and challenging situation, to put it mildly, other than to say I feel both sides are wrong in their vengeance seeking actions. Genocide of any race or religion has never accomplished anything other than more of the same.
The creeping jihad concern - well, it seems non-Muslims are having their way in Western countries - France has banned the wearing of burqas, for instance. In 2004, they banned headscarves in public schools. I think Sha'ria law is not desirable to the majority of most peoples, moderate Muslims included. This issue reminds me of the Mexican immigration debates here in the U.S. Many are angered by what they see as disregard for American customs, language, etc., by those who bypass citizenship requirements and come into the country illegally, determined to hold onto their mother country's ways. But I digress...
To conclude briefly yet in totality of my stance - interpretation of religious text and Saudi Arabia slash western complicity.
And I will add once more, for what it's worth, I sincerely hope I haven't offended you or anyone else following this discussion.
posted by
Katray2
on March 2, 2010 at 4:43 PM
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I think we should be talking about adherents to the religion more than the
religion itself.
Taking your posts as valid quotes from the Koran, we should also note that many Muslims have seemed to disregard these passages in the past. Jews have held honored status in Muslim countries, Orthodox Christians have also be accorded favor, as noted by the existence of the Church of the Nativity and Holy Sepulchre, among others, which have been around for centuries under Muslim rulers.
The problem as I see it is growing hatred for the West and certain actions, and Muslim extremists using passages from the Koran to justify their violence toward others.
Religious extremists in general are this way, finding quotes from their own holy writs that back up their extreme actions.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM
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Geez Naut you got to be exausted... loll I guess it is time well spent though if it clears up the muddy waters loll I enjoyed that give and take, took me back to college days, and it reminded me of the fact that all extremists are the same... no matter if from the right or from the left, if cornered they all start quoting the bible loll Be well :-) xoxoxo
posted by
Sinome
on March 2, 2010 at 1:50 PM
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