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re: elinjo
To answer your question about the "Elect" it means the love of God. We respect and love all prophets, but we don't worship them. All prophets came with a message to worship the one God. I like to add this verse from the holy Quran:
Verily, those who believe in God and His Messengers and wish to make distinction
between God and His Messengers (by believing in God and disbelieving in His
Messengers), saying: "We believe in some but we reject others," and wish to adopt
a way in between, they are in truth disbelievers. And we have prepared for the
disbelievers a humiliating torment. And those who believe in God and His
Messengers and make no distinction between any of them (Messengers), We shall
give them their rewards, and God is Most Forgiving, Most merciful.
(Quran 4:150-152)
posted by
Chuck_E_Ibrahim
on December 14, 2009 at 9:38 AM
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Re: Nautikos:
Justi, thank you for teaching me a new word: Wuss.
My impression is that neither Jesus nor, for example Ghandi were wusses. They showed how it is possible to highlight bad practices in a peaceful way.
posted by
elinjo
on December 14, 2009 at 1:23 AM
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Re: Chuck
It was a joy for me to read your comment. I can agree with your quotation about the merits of knowledge. The problem in this context is perhaps in the last phrase: 'it's companion is love of the elect'. Whom do we consider to be the 'elect' ? Do we consider them to be believers in 'one god', or do we consider them to be, for example, followers of Jesus or followers of Muhammed?
posted by
elinjo
on December 14, 2009 at 1:16 AM
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Re: Shelly
Although not a Christian or a Quaker I can certainly agree with your conclusions.
posted by
elinjo
on December 14, 2009 at 1:01 AM
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Re: Nauticos....I am going to comment to the last commentor
Kabu, I'm a bit puzzled by your comment. Having read Chuck's comment several times, I do not see any evidence of disrespect for Christmas. From it I get the very strong impression that he is trying to put his religion in the context that it belongs; the common background of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. We are all the people of the book.
posted by
elinjo
on December 14, 2009 at 12:58 AM
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Nautikos
To sign or not sign the charter is a personal choice. I posted the link to show that there are people from many different backgrounds and religions, including Islam, that go in for moderation. My point is that we should get together with these moderates and stand up against those people that want to cause trouble in this world.
Judging by some of the comments, I continue to doubt the wisdom of this discussion, at least in this forum.
I have not got time to continue this debate today. Here's wishing you and all the other good people who have contributed to this debate a peaceful day.
posted by
elinjo
on December 14, 2009 at 12:36 AM
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Re: moderates speaking up.
IMO Moderates from all religions need to speak up and confirm that they believe in one indisputable fact: we are all members of the human race and have an interest in living our lives as well as we can, which presumably means that we would prefer to die of natural causes.
posted by
elinjo
on December 14, 2009 at 12:25 AM
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Re: Perhaps it is the fear of retribution...
Exactly ash pradhan, thank you for raising this point.
What should we do to mitigate that fear? If we want to encourage them to stand up and oppose fundamentalists who are attempting to hijack the religion then in my very humble opinion the last thing we should do is to insult them all!
posted by
elinjo
on December 14, 2009 at 12:21 AM
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Nautikos
Well now ain't that neat, I didn't sign that charter either, for almost the same reason as you, the
MUSLIM SILENCE but not entirely. I do happen to be Christian and unlike Muslims I don't want to kill them as bad as they want to kill me, I just want them to dry up and blow away. I'm with Justi on that part, God will take care of all that and now I'm goinna forget about all that trashy stuff and go to bed. 
posted by
WileyJohn
on December 13, 2009 at 9:18 PM
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Perhaps it is the fear of retribution...
that keeps the moderate muslims silent? Then, what do the rest of us need to do to genuinely mitigate that fear?
posted by
ash_pradhan
on December 13, 2009 at 7:48 PM
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Nautikos:
Please forgive me but I need to respond to Sam444. If you object to that you may, of course, delete this.
Dear Sam, How on earth does the concept that Jesus was a gentle man to all come out to some readers of the Bible? He called the high priests and all the leaders of the church of the day every name in the book. He fought the sellers who were desecrating the temple and all through the Old and New Testament the acts of God, who is one with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, fought evil and evil people, he rejected all sorts of people as examples of our actions.
Jesus was not a Wuss!
posted by
Justi
on December 13, 2009 at 5:42 PM
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We definitely do need the moderates to speak up...Here's hoping that somehow somebody finds a way to make that happen.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on December 13, 2009 at 4:40 PM
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I am deep seeded in my faith and know no other way than to be tolerant and accepting! I am of a religious society and a Christian because I follow the teachings of Jesus! There are Christians who are very vocal and I consider to be a determent to global peace and fellowship as much as any other religious entity! If Christians would profess and live by the teachings of Jesus, the world might be softer. In other words, I truly believe everyone needs to take a look at themselves and determine what they can do individually to reach a collective end. I saw the use of
Chuck person in a previous posted comment. He is a fine man and deserved to be called Chuck as you did. Shelly
You are right the silence is deafening among us all!
posted by
sam444
on December 13, 2009 at 1:23 PM
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Nautikos
Where is that basis that any civilization has come out of a hateful and violent oppression by being silent and kind? The Jews of Gerrnany, Poland and USSR had no choice but to be silent. How painfully true of the opposite that turned out.
All of the words of Jesus in the New Testament come out of the Old Testament base. To understand the New Testament without a good working knowledge of the Old Testament is not possible. They are not separate. Jesus was in the first chapter of Genesis and continues through out the Bible.
My reason for saying this is: Knowing the Old Testament fairly well (no one has ever completely learned either), it is easy for me to see; and for anyone looking at both, the Koran is a demoniac knock off of the Old Testament. If you know there is only one fight, war or whatever you want to call it, then you know the whole world is a war between Satan and God. No peaceful appeasement will ever stop the Muslims from fighting to the death until they have taken the world, except the return of Jesus. It is simple: match up history against all the happenings of the Bible and it is clear as a bell. Why haven't the very educated lerned that, many have, but others cannot give authority to anyone or anything greater than science and man. They, Muslims, will be successful in taking over the world as we know it now, and soon. They will not be able to totally destroy the Jews and before they bring down the ultimate act that will destroy the earth, Christ returns and stops it.
No kindness will stop this process. Satan still thinks he can become Lord of the Earth. That is totally and completely who the Muslim heads work for. Sound stupid, it is your call. It is true. This Chuck person is totally deceived. There are over 360 prophecies in the OT that were proven to be true in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Anything outside the truth of there being Satan and God declares this debate null and void.
posted by
Justi
on December 13, 2009 at 11:48 AM
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That's pretty much the same reason that I did not sign it. Definitely, I am a true believer in compassion, but not in the collusion or compromise of silence.
posted by
TAPS.
on December 13, 2009 at 11:28 AM
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Nauticos....I am going to comment to the last commentor
who is trying to sell Islam to North Americans and you can tell that by his lack of respect for the Christian holiday of
CHRISTMAS. If you consider that Islam appeared about six hundred years after Jesus was on earth it's obvious that the Arabs who are trying to take over the world now needed a more violent document the the Bible.
posted by
Kabu
on December 13, 2009 at 9:36 AM
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This Holiday Season is a reminder for us to reflect at what matters most, so let bitterness and hostility turn into peace and joy. Faith is a reflection of who we are and how we conduct ourselves. Through the
history of mankind, all the prophets preached one message to man: believe in the one God. When we fully comprehend the true meaning of this concept, we can move on to better ourselves and lives through their teachings. Each Prophet was sent to his people during a specific era. Except Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). God Almightt said: "We have not sent you except a mercy to mankind." translated from its Quranic Verse 21:107, meaning to all humanity, present and future, till the end of time. When Jesus addressed his followers "Verily, Verily I said unto you, unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Jews and how you could be better than the Jews, and you don't follow the Ten Commandments." Religion came to build us as humans, and in turn make this world a better place to all. So through the knowledge (not academic knowledge) but the knowledge of the Universe, as Iman Ali , the third Muslim Caliph said "Knowledge has many merits. If you imagine it to be a human being, then it's head is humbleness, it's eye is freedom, it's ear is understanding, it's tongue is truthfulness, it's memory is research, it's heart is good intention, it's intellect is the knowledge of things and matters. It's hand is compassion, it's foot is visiting the learned, it's resolution is integrity, it's wisdom is piety, it's abode is salvation, it's helmsman is well-being, it's mount is faithfulness, it's weapon is softness of speech, it's sword is satisfaction, it's bow is tolerance, it's army is discussion with the learned, it's wealth are refined manners, it's stock is abstinence from sins, it's provision for journey is virtue, it's
drinking water is gentleness, it's guide is divine guidance, and it's companion is the love of the elect." If we are as such then felicity to mankind.
posted by
Chuck_E_Ibrahim
on December 13, 2009 at 9:04 AM
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Just a note to let you know I am reflecting :-) and soon, like it or not (for I maybe counted among those who hate to argue about beliefs) I will have to deep my toesies into your debate because my reflections are getting somewhere... concluding if you will , and what is a conclusion if no one knows what has been concluded loll. Your posts have become an addiction, one I love to feed :-) xoxoxo
posted by
Sinome
on December 13, 2009 at 8:54 AM
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