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Yes, interesting viewpoints there. Dialogue, I think, is better suited than discussion or debate. Debates are those that become heated; dialogues, cool.
posted by
anib
on December 1, 2009 at 11:29 PM
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This is an interesting read.
However, for the sake of maintaining female friends on Blogit as well as in my daily life. I will not comment, except to say. A nice post, Naut.
posted by
Hackthorne19
on December 1, 2009 at 11:22 PM
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I am going to try to catch up with all of this later. I am glad you are doing it. I dare say too few know enough about either the Christian or rather the Holy Bible or the Koran to debate it. I am thankful for your work but will not attempt to debate what people do not want to debate but to refute regardless of the facts presented. You do such a good job in this sort of writing. Very interesting.
posted by
Justi
on December 1, 2009 at 9:23 PM
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I have come to this debate a little late, but it's extremely interesting. I would like your view on the following which puzzles me a lot when in Turkey. It is obvious, that the headscarf has returned with a vengeance and more and more young professional women even in Istanbul wear it. At the same time, they wear make up like movie stars, sit in cafes holding their boyfriends' hands and smoke openly. How do these attitudes fit together. I have always wanted to ask but don't know any of them well enough to out the question. Do you have an explanation?
posted by
vogue
on December 1, 2009 at 3:31 PM
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Islamo-Fascist Views on Women etc. Nautikos
Let me express my views as briefly and clearly as possible:
1. Islamo-Fascists/fundamentalists have inspired particularly vicious terrorist attacks.
2. Moderate Muslims are not sufficiently visible. Whether this is because they are not sufficiently vocal or because the media does not give them a fair share of publicity, I do not know. The following links are to sites or articles about the contributions of a number of moderate Muslims in different parts of the world.
http://fora.tv/2006/11/02/Democratic_Reform_in_the_Middle_East
http://www.aifdemocracy.org/news.php?id=5337
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/index.php?option=com_displayevents&Itemid=362&eventid=205
http://www.wowowow.com/post/young-iran-women-war-mullahs-islam-62593
3. With regard to the inferior position of women in Muslim societies. The following gives a somewhat different picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_political_leaders_in_Islam_and_in_Muslim-majority_countries
4. Concentrating a bit more on the visions, contributions and achievements of moderate elements would perhaps be one way forward.
5. By making a fuss about symbols such as minarets and headscarves one will only convince moderate Muslims that the non-Muslim world does not respect their human rights. See
Article 18.
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
Nautikos, I think I agree with you about Blogit not being the best forum for discussions like this. However I thank you once again for laying down the gauntlet.
posted by
elinjo
on December 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM
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Kabu
I never said anything at all about Jesus, just the Christian Bible itself.
But what you said backs up the point I was making. It is not the text or in this case according to you the actual teachings of 'prophets', but the churches who are the ones who take the religious beliefs and make them counter to a productive society.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 1, 2009 at 12:05 PM
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Goodness me.....Obviously the Rev. Kooka has never read the new
testament........Jesus treated women as equal human people worthy of spiritual learning and debate along side men ....he did not praise Martha for her cooking and cleaning when she could have been learning from himself. It is the Churches not Jesus who carried on the Patriarchal disciplines.
posted by
Kabu
on December 1, 2009 at 8:47 AM
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Islamo-facscist views on Women.
I'm not backing out of this discussion. However I'm going to be very busy with non-Blogit things until this evening, so I will be back to comment on this post and the subsequent comments.
posted by
elinjo
on December 1, 2009 at 12:06 AM
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Nautikos
One thing that is over looked is that much of the extremist Muslim attitude can be found in ANY extremist religious group.
Find for me one nice thing the Christian Bible says about women. According to it women are property and their main use is to produce sons for their husbands. The Christian Bible goes into details about how to stone women to death for all manner of crimes, many of which they are actually the victims and not the guilty party.
The problem is NOT from the religious text itself, but with those who wish to follow the extreme and outdated ideas of that text. And due to the push against Islam due to the retaliation against the radical groups actions, such as the events of 9/11, we are seeing many Muslims groups feeling threatened (Which they have ever right to feel due to the attitudes we are seeing from a growing number of Christians) and they reacting by becoming more radical in following their religious texts.
You also talk abotu Muslim groups pushing for sharia law, which I am very much against and have been for some time opposing the ideas of Christians pushing for basically the same thing here in the US, just the Christian version of it. No truly free country can ever have it laws based on religious ideas if that country wishes to be truly free.
Mush of the problem with the radical Muslims is that same as you will find with any radical religious group. The true fix to the problem is to do all you can to keep state and church separate and promote the basic ideas of respect for other's beliefs.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 30, 2009 at 7:25 PM
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Nautikos
Vive les Suisse!!!!!!!!! Too bad that before 1939 folks in Germany didn't throw a referendum on the use of the swastika,
posted by
WileyJohn
on November 30, 2009 at 5:42 PM
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I'm afraid I don't have much to say in your debate, but I am reading and becoming more disconcerted and queasy in my stomach with each reading. It isn't that I didn't really know most of this already, it's just that day by day it's easier to just set it aside rather than dwell on it.
posted by
TAPS.
on November 30, 2009 at 4:52 PM
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I like that you're addressing our comments on here.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on November 30, 2009 at 3:49 PM
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My problems with debate is my laziness in searching for refence when
I bring forth an argument. I am therefore delighted when you do that for me. It doesn't appear that there is anything really "nice " for women in the Koran. Justice would seem to be very tepid when you compare with the freedom of choice for women within say my own society.
posted by
Kabu
on November 30, 2009 at 1:19 PM
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