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Nautikos
My guess is that Nation Building was a Bush thought, but in the short term Obama will pull all the troops out of there by 2011. Oh why can 't people be patient with him I wonder? Bush left America bankrupt and nobody seems to be talking about that. It usually takes 7 years to get out of bankruptcy.
posted by
WileyJohn
on November 8, 2009 at 7:28 PM
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Re: Re: Afghanistan is a complicated problem.
The difference between the Taliban and Al-Qaeda has been delineated by quite a few people who should know. I am only relaying their conclusions to whoever wants to read this.
Taliban is a more or less tribal unit of Afghanistan, while Al-Qaeda is a multinational group whose aims include violent attacks at certain segments of Western infrastructure.
A lot of informed people fear that Afghanistan could be a worse quagmire than Vietnam (or have I said that), and mainly because of fighting the Taliban. Many are talking about allowing the Taliban certain participation in Afghan Government.
They figure that making peace with the Taliban will be a great step toward focusing more on Al-Qaeda and dealing with them more effectively.
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 8, 2009 at 5:14 PM
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Re: Re: Afghanistan is a complicated problem.
You. RSM, seem to want to follow in Herr Bush's footsteps and keep us involved in an endless military excursion.
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 8, 2009 at 7:53 AM
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Naut......
Did we not "build" nations at the end of WWII? As was mentioned in a previous comment, though I don't agree with it total premise, Japan was remade into a democracy and has done quite well. Japan was not ready to embrace it on their own.
A democratic government was reinstalled in Germany and has stabilized into a healthy democracy...........what about the Baltic states? Most have embraced Democracy through our help, after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Poland is an excellent example......The difference between these states and the Islamic world is the tribal nature by which these peoples have lived for thousands of years.
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 8, 2009 at 2:52 AM
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Re: Afghanistan is a complicated problem.
And the difference between the Taliban and Al-Qaeda is...? I am always amazed at naivety.
posted by
RedStatesMan
on November 7, 2009 at 9:25 PM
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Building a nation.
Excellent writing there, Naut. I too think "building a nation" is hogwash, or perhaps bullshit is a better word. After World War Two, America forced democracy on Japan - a country that had never known what it was, and to this day, still doesn't really understand it. Iraq and Afghanistan are examples of, once again, the United States inflicting its will on a nation. Damnit, why couldn't Bush have just stayed out? Vietnam was a failure, now America is doing it all over again.
posted by
Hackthorne19
on November 7, 2009 at 9:22 PM
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The very notion of "Nation Building"...
by an external entity is arrogant ! Did the British build the nation of "India"? Heck no...did they help in that process? yes & no, depending on the specific issue. It is when the spirits of a people awaken to a common cause, that is also consistent with the overall humanity, that a nation starts truly building. Until then it is just floundering, much like a human's struggle to reach maturity / self-realization through the stages of childhood, adolescence, adulthood. External entities like family, friends, enemies all contribute to that process, but ultimately it is upto that individual to build him/herself, and nations are just groups of such individuals.
Naut, I like it when you, or for that matter anyone, writes thoughtfully, and civilly, I respect that. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same thing about everything I read here. Thanks for taking the trouble, I know it ain't easy, that's what makes it worthy. Write on my enlightened friend from up North :)! - Ash
posted by
ash_pradhan
on November 7, 2009 at 5:49 PM
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Afghanistan is a complicated problem.
Nation building is quite a few years down the road, considering the present state of that country, quite divided.
And I understand that Obama is considering not fighting the Taliban, for that would be sinking us further into a quagmire worse than Vietnam. He wants them included in any "nation building". He wants to be able to focus efforts on Al-Qaeda.
More than 8 years and Afghanistan still isn't safe. Extra-extraordinary would have to be exerted to bring peace and victory there. Are the American people ready to support such? Or would this be like Vietnam in time, with popular opposition to any more involvement. It defeated the Soviets. It possibly can defeat the U.S.
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 7, 2009 at 5:37 PM
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I agree. Nation building just doesn't happen.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on November 7, 2009 at 5:26 PM
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Great post I know you haven't been a fan, and of course I am an interested
Aussie sitting in the bleaches. A fan of the man that is.
There are Aussies in Iraq & Afghanistan we were big in Vietnam and I wish we hadn't been anywhere. But that is me the pacifist, sort of, because I do believe that we hold the right to defend our own homeland. I agree only the people of a Nation can nation build. If we all went home to our own back yard....I wonder what would happen?
posted by
Kabu
on November 7, 2009 at 2:17 PM
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A Year Later, and Much More
Naut . . . IMHO, not even most of the Native American tribes would coalesce, and because they wouldn't, "Manifest Destiny" was the virus that virtually eradicated them. A form of "nation building" one might say. The results were, for the most part, very sad, no matter what history attempts to transcribe and transpose. joab
posted by
joab3
on November 7, 2009 at 11:55 AM
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What an interesting post. I hope it won't be too long before you continue.
posted by
TAPS.
on November 7, 2009 at 11:23 AM
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I'm with "vogue".....
posted by
Troosha
on November 7, 2009 at 8:42 AM
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I thought you made excellent points! I try to stay away from public debate but I will continue on with your series because you stay as close to the facts and their interpretations as fine as anyone I have ever known! Shelly
This can't be an easy topic for you and thus you have my greatest respect for tackling it!
posted by
sam444
on November 7, 2009 at 3:57 AM
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As I have said before, I won't comment on politics, but rest assured that I follow your post with great interest.
posted by
vogue
on November 7, 2009 at 1:31 AM
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Naut
He has no intention of doing anything to alter the military at this point. He has larger plans for spreading the military where he wants it simply for the order of what he has in mind down the road, very soon. We are so much closer to One World Government than I could have imagined. I think he is a good orator but not smart enough to pull off breaking capitalism, running amuck over synthetic global warming junk and taking cap and trade to one world bank. Somebody else is pulling his string. Will all of North America be like Cuba before this term is finished? I love what you are doing here.
posted by
Justi
on November 7, 2009 at 12:37 AM
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Nautikos!
I look forward to reading the next part of your excellent analysis of the situation in Afghanistan and its historical background.
Denmark has and is playing an active part in Afghanistan and Danish families have also lost their sons and husbands in this terrible and hopeless war. Even so recent opinion poll shows that there is still popular support for our involvement.
posted by
elinjo
on November 7, 2009 at 12:23 AM
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Very interesting Naut. I totally agree with you in that trying to "build a Nation" is a slippery slope... Furthermore, if one must even try to do such a thing... why in the world would one pick a place like Afghanistan where the "tribes' as you called them have such irreconcilable differences ....and are notoriously unfriendly to outside influences. Why not just go in, get what and who we want and get out with our boys healthy and our monies unspent. I personally think that the powers to be should be more worried about keeping this Nation together rather than going about trying to "build" others, because I see a lot of discontent and even worse crippling apathy, among my fellow "tribemates". Then again , like I said before, I know nothing about politics... :-) Be well xoxo
posted by
Sinome
on November 6, 2009 at 9:35 PM
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