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Xeno-x - Re: I think Jesus was a human like the rest of us.
All that you describe is plausible, we simply have no way of knowing what really happened. We can however extrapolate all that we know to be false from the story. We know that people do not rise from the dead, if there is any truth to the story of Jesus' body not being there when the women arrived at the tomb, we can apply our own speculation as to why not. . . I say his followers smuggled the body away in the dark of night and made up a whopper to cover their tracks . . . we all know how much Christians love to make up whoppers.
posted by
gomedome
on April 16, 2009 at 11:26 AM
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I think Jesus was a human like the rest of us.
It was decided 300 years later that he was God.
I think he was chosen to be what he later became -- was probably precocious, then taught religious ideas by a sect of Judaism that was akin to the Pharisees. He had the title of Rabbi (KJV renders it "master"), and it really looks like he was, had his own synagogue (see John 6). He preached freedom from the strictures of the Judaism of his day, and taught focusing on interactions with others rather than religious ritual, etc.
He had a following up there in Galilee so far away from the center of Judaism, and so ignored and put down. He was religion where there might have been not much religion. How much of a following is unknown.
He purposely confronted the religious authorities at the Temple to provoke them to some action. Whether or not he expect to be crucified can only be surmised (the "agony in the garden" indicates that this might have been the case). I think plans were underway to cut the crucifixion short (he was taken down quite prematurely, possibly in collusion with Pilate (Pilate is said to have seen that the religious authorities were "jealous" of Jesus, thus had no sympathy for their position).
In the Gospel of Mark, the women came rushing to the tomb that Sabbath evening, discovering only a young man there who said Jesus is gone before them to Galilee. That's it.
I think in order to save his teachings and religion he had to be considered dead by the religious authorities, that he then placed the responsibility for spreading his gospel on his disciples, then subsequently on Paul (who had the most success).
The idea of Jesus' sacrifice for sins was an outgrowth of the Jewish religion, with the lamb sacrifice every Passover, Jesus replacing the lamb as a permanent (rather than annual) sacrifice. The idea then grew into the "son of god" being the ultimate sacrifice for all time and all people. The people of the time would not have understood anything else. They depended heavily upon sacrifices, both Jews and Gentiles. Thus the connection was made that resounded to the people of the time.
Most Christians today are not that much different. They need the sacrifice as an explanation.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 16, 2009 at 7:39 AM
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Bhaskar.ing - Re: Enjoyed the discussion, gomedome.
Thank you and thanx for stopping in.
posted by
gomedome
on April 16, 2009 at 6:47 AM
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Soul_Builder101 - aside from your continuing insistence that Satan is real
I can agree with a lot that you have said in your comment. ....Jesus dying for our sins part of the yarn doesn't make any sense.
posted by
gomedome
on April 16, 2009 at 6:45 AM
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Nautikos - thanx for stopping in
posted by
gomedome
on April 16, 2009 at 6:37 AM
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Enjoyed the discussion, gomedome.
I think you did a swell job in the last para in clarification and continuity:
"Where it does not fully illustrate all that Jesus represented, it is not inaccurate to say he was about social equity and social justice".
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on April 16, 2009 at 5:48 AM
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While he represented images we have of social equity etc, he was a soul person who taught how to get there. He turned down satan's offer of material plenty. He taught and healed. His teachings were reactionary and so he was killed(one version). Priestcraft rewrote his death as a script written by God. He had to die for our sins so we will have none and so gain heaven. That BS story is widely believed. Nobody can do this. Besides they keep sinning even when in church. Who will die so the current crop of sins will be expunged from the record? A decent man was killed and a cultish set of myths created around him. He was one with God but not God...God didn't die on the cross. So many lies put in with truth makes it all appear to be lies!
posted by
Soul_Builder101
on April 15, 2009 at 8:27 PM
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Re: Re: it was a world where one did not speak out against slavery
I won't dispute your interpretation. Your interpretation is that Jesus was in favor of beating slaves.
I see where the servant in question (a headman so to speak) was guilty of acts that warranted punishment.
Also, I see where Jesus was continuing an analogy -- and that each part of the analogy is metaphorical. He spoke in the language of the day. I don't see where this is literal -- I see, as I have said, where it is metaphorical.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 15, 2009 at 2:11 PM
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Re: Re: it was a world where one did not speak out against slavery
one thing -- remember that this is King James -- 16th Century Anglican, taken from the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, so they would interpret words and statements to fit their world view -- let me analyze the passage and see if there's a difference between the original Greek and the English translation.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 15, 2009 at 2:02 PM
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Re: ZenMom - we don't actually disagree, you are speaking of the inevitable
I will re-read your post to gain a clearer understanding. Truth be told......these discussions drain me. After reading and posting my own thoughts, my head feels like it is filled w/ cotton (due to my MS). The arguments in your posts are always well delivered and helpful to me as I continue on my own path to greater enlightenment. Kudos to you gd...........ZM
posted by
ZenMom
on April 15, 2009 at 1:03 PM
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Re: mariposa75 - don't come here and speak gibberish
Way to go gomedome..........I couldn't have said it better............"GIBBERISH"..........rofl
posted by
ZenMom
on April 15, 2009 at 12:51 PM
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Re: it was a world where one did not speak out against slavery
Xeno - I've heard before Luke was "parable syle" based on the culture of the day yet an examination of the content proves otherwise. Jesus has just given a parable about servants a few verses earlier and Peter had asked for an elaboration (12:41). The quote about beating the slaves is in the explanation, NOT the parable.
posted by
ZenMom
on April 15, 2009 at 12:49 PM
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gome
One of the best short statements on the subject I have ever read...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 15, 2009 at 12:31 PM
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Xeno-x - Re: it was a world where one did not speak out against slavery
Slavery really is one of the biggest inconsistencies in claims that ancient scriptures were inspired by an all loving God.
posted by
gomedome
on April 15, 2009 at 10:47 AM
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mariposa75 - don't come here and speak gibberish
"I am praying that someday God will open your eyes that are blinded by the devil." . . . then I guess you won't mind if I mutter a few incantations to my invisible friends on your behalf? . . . .
"I am praying that someday you understand how rude it is to tell someone who doesn't believe in man made religious constructs, that you are petitioning imaginary beings on their behalf to cure a deficiency which you feel is your right to define in others."
posted by
gomedome
on April 15, 2009 at 10:46 AM
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ZenMom - we don't actually disagree, you are speaking of the inevitable
inconsistencies that come with defining a conceptual being.
If Jesus was a man like any other, he had nothing to do with any scriptures or holy texts that were not contemporary to his lifetime. He could not have inspired works predating his birth, we also know the unlikelihood of any form of accuracy in works that appeared decades after his death. This leads us to conclude that his persona might have been a creation of influences from the old testament, his legend most certainly influenced the writings of the new testament. There is admittedly nothing that stands out in any of the words attributed to him in terms of being a model for today's ideals of social equity or social justice but that isn't quite what I was saying.
The direct line is drawn not from specific words or ideals that can be correlated or paralleled with words of today, but moreso from his appearance on the historical landscape as the first champion of the poor etc. etc. I thought I covered myself when I began the next line with "Where it does not fully illustrate all that Jesus represented . . ."
posted by
gomedome
on April 15, 2009 at 10:38 AM
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I disagree. Jesus did rise from the dead. He was seen by over 400 at one time. Most of his disciples died a martyrs death. Either Jesus was a liar, lunatic, or he told the truth - but he was not just a good man. I believe he was God in the flesh. I am praying that someday God will open your eyes that are blinded by the devil. I am also sad if you were burnt by religion as many have been. I had a very bad experience in the Catholic school as a child and it definitely turned me off. I pray that God will heal you and help you to forgive those who have hurt you.
posted by
mariposa75
on April 15, 2009 at 10:16 AM
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it was a world where one did not speak out against slavery
because such was so common
here in Luke, though, Jesus is using a parable style -- using servants and slaves to make a point -- not necessarily supporting slavery.
he held out an ideal -- the "kingdom of god", which I have concluded is a state of mind rather than a place.
the Roman authority was so repressive that people did not speak out.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 15, 2009 at 10:10 AM
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I have to disagree w/ you when you write: "A direct line can be drawn from what Jesus Christ represented to the ideals enveloped in the words; all men are created equal in the eyes of God."
Jesus did not represent equality. He never once spoke out against slavery. In Luke 12:47,48, he said: "And that servant (Greek doulous=slave) which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten w/ many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten w/ few stripes."
So basically, Jesus, the unrivaled moral example, encourage the beating or slaves. The OT endorses slavery, and Jesus, being equal to God, supposedly wrote the old laws. The godbots here on blogit cherry pick those passages from the bible that portray Jesus as caring and loving. But, there are passages that show Jesus to be selfish, callous, violent and irrational.
(Not that I'm bothered by any of this, since I have no doubt the bible was NOT inspired by God/Jesus. It was written by human beings, locked into the culture of their time.) ZM
posted by
ZenMom
on April 15, 2009 at 9:45 AM
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