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- Go to Great! We’ve got a Debate! Christian and Muslim Freakazoids...Part II
Re: Naut, I look forward to reading more.
Thanks, Mandalee. I don't know how much more there will be - the 'meat' of this thing is probably in the previous posts, beginning with the start of the 'Israeli child-killer' series...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 14, 2008 at 5:43 PM
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Re:
Thank you, EX TURPI. I agree, but it's difficult, the present case being a good example...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 14, 2008 at 5:40 PM
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Naut, I look forward to reading more.
posted by
Amanda__
on October 14, 2008 at 2:52 PM
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Good debate. There should be more of these on Blogit.
posted by
EX_TURPI
on October 14, 2008 at 8:58 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Nautikos
Thanks, mousehop. For today, only a short reply, since I am running out of time. Although I am a 'conservative' and you are a 'liberal', you and I are much closer in our view of the world than these labels would suggest, which, among other things, demonstrates the fluidity of meanings and the frequent insufficiency of labels, if nothing else, lol.
Since I am also, among other things, an IF, and have a reasonably good understanding of what Jeffersonian liberalism is all about, I know that many of today's 'liberals' would recoil in horror at the Jeffersonian version (if they understood it). Many if not most of today's 'liberals' are not liberal.
Like the 'true' liberalism of the Jeffersonian kind, 'true' conservatism also lacks the rudder of a program, in addition possibly also that of the belief in 'progress'. Thus, while I am in many ways a conservative, I am not always and necessarily a 'conservative' in today's mold either.
I still think Corbin's comment was quite apt, though. For it is my experience that many of today's 'liberals' are often lost in a virtually impenetrable fog, the fog of the 'true believer'...
With respect to Israel, let me say that I support it not just because it exists, but because it's existence is important, for a host of practical and symbolic reasons, and because it is a testament to the fact that sometimes the human spirit can triumph in the face of evil...
As to the last part of your comment - a step in the right direction would be for someone to declare certain verses in the Koran 'Satanic Verses'! There's historical precedent, it's been done before - and I'm not talking of Salman Rushdie's book here...And I'm also not just kidding here, but then again, I know I am...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 14, 2008 at 6:03 AM
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Re: Naut
Thanks, Troosh! You've identified the problem perfectly and succinctly - you haven't said 'too much', you have said what was
necessary, and it's much appreciated...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Some thoughts triggered by your articles
Aardige Africaner, if it’s is starry-eyed to prefer a civilized and open West, which for me includes Israel, with all its richness and diversity, to an Islamic world whose own riches are being stifled by the violently intolerant religio-political movement that is Islamo-fascism, so be it. In fact, though, I am of course by no means unaware of our own problems.
But Christianity has long since lost its militancy. There may be many ‘kooks’ or CFs as they have been called here, lol, but for the most part they’re harmless.
And Judaism’s ‘political’ aspects are purely defensive – Jews don’t want to turn the whole world into Jews – they just want to live in peace, free of persecution for the first time in 2000 years.
But militant Muslims want to turn the whole world into an Islamic world. If you think that sounds ridiculous, read the Koran and contemporary Islamists. I am just telling you what they say! And unfortunately, too may have made that message their own. I am not suggesting they will succeed, but they have already caused a lot of problems in the trying, and will cause much more in future.
This is not an ‘ideal’ world, nor will it ever be one! Beware of those who tell you that it can be if only you follow them, and who attempt to force you to adopt their view and their way of life...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 14, 2008 at 5:05 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Nautikos
If I were to classify myself in the dimension of Freakazoids, I'd be a an IF (Intellectual) or AF (Atheist), but others on blogit have repeatedly called me a Liberal. That label often fits, by my definition of Liberal, as I admire Thomas Jefferson and some of his predecessors in Liberal philosophy. So I feel justified in responding to corbin_dallas and his statments regarding us Liberals. Rudderless? Perhaps. We follow the evidence, without demanding that it take us to our preconceived conclusion, like CF's, MF's, JF's, and like-minded Conservatives of every ilk. History, and study of history, is clearly a liberal idea, and we make use of it generally, though I admit many, under the label of Liberalism, ignore the principles of liberal philosophy and practice the Conservative habit of picking data to make a point, whether the whole data set supports it or not. That is a violation of liberal principles, and should be criticized when practiced by anyone, liberals included. But history, I contend, supports Liberal thought over Conservative on nearly every issue. Even market economics began as a Liberal idea, and is still held as such by some of us.
I support Nautikos conclusion, that the West should support Israel, but only because Israel currently exists, and practices democratic republicanism, which history seems to show is the most secure and most humane form of government. That is why we should continue to pressure non-republican governments to adopt it.
The only way Judaism, Christianity, and Islam can come together is for each to abandon some of its core beliefs, and secularize. But the fundamentalists are correct: this constitutes abandonment of their founding principles, and compromise of God's (or Allah's) directives. I think the world would be better off for it, but I don't expect true believers to even listen, much less be convinced.
posted by
mousehop
on October 13, 2008 at 9:15 AM
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Naut
The imperative that Israel not be obliterated (as was so carefully laid out and argued in your series) seems to have been lost in this debate with some comments going completely off topic. But that’s what happens when any mention of CFs and MFs comes into play. All of the sudden all hell breaks loose; extremists rear their passionate heads and the message so carefully and intelligently delivered in your series becomes lost. I've already said to much -I'm outta here....
posted by
Troosha
on October 13, 2008 at 7:50 AM
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Re: Re: Some thoughts triggered by your articles
I admit that the three sisters working together is a dream, but todays' dreams can become tomorrows' realities. A very long term dream though. Yes, Islam is also a political movement, and so is Judaism and some forms of Christianity (Both these have their own states too and although Israel is not necessarily a religious state per se, it would not have existed if neither Christianity nor Judaism did). I do not personally share your dream of preserving Israel and the West as it is, so that specific threat from Islam does not bother me that much. This does not imply that I agree with the destruction of Israel and the West in general, I just don't see both these with the starry eyes you obviously do. A fullscale war between Islam and Christianity/Judasim/the West will not be pretty from any angle and I for one would rather see that avoided at all cost, but when the cost exeeds the losses due to war, perhaps these "brothers" of the Books should get it over and done with as long as they don't blow up the whole planet. Fortunately I do not, have never, and don't plan to ever, live in Israel, the West or any Islamic country. Good luck to you who do.
posted by
AardigeAfrikaner
on October 13, 2008 at 7:08 AM
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Re: Naut.....
Thanks, Corbin! What a picture ...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 7:30 AM
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Re: Re: Nautikos
Thanks again, Benzinha. Thinking about your previous comment (the one on your blog, which I urge everyone to read) it occurs to me that you possibly think of me as a 'CF Zionist', and that I might thus have a vested interest in being silent about CFs as well as JFs (Jewish Freakazoids), whom you also mention.
I gotta tell you that I am far from being a CF, as most of my readers will attest to. At best, I am an AF (Atheist/Agnostic, take your pick) Freakazoid. And though I am also not a JF, I will admit again, as I have in the past, that I am a Zionist, in the sense that I believe in the right of Israel to exist, and in its well-being; and that, in spite of your assertions to the contrary, there is no threat to Israel from CFs, but only from MFs. And, since that is the topic of this debate, I shall not allow myself to be drawn into a debate on CFs. I shall not even venture into a discussion of the threat to logic and good sense posed by LFs (Liberal Freakazoids), although I am tempted at times...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 7:26 AM
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Re: To everyone:
In reply to myself: last night I meant to say 'I just got home', not 'I just go home'...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 7:03 AM
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Re:
Thanks, Shelly! Fun and games...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 7:00 AM
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Re: Naut
Thanks OTA! I guess I've been reading too much of the Koran, and have not been watching enough TV...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 6:59 AM
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Re: Re: Nautikos
Excellent point, mousehop. The Danish cartoon case is a prime example of the difference between Muslim and Western reactions. Muslims marched in the streets with placards reading 'Kill the Infidels', and Western liberal media were going on about our lack of 'sensitivity'...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 6:09 AM
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Re: Nautikos
Thanks, Krisles! I think 'bait and switch' is an
excellent name for the rhetorical tactic of switching topics...I wonder if it's something liberals are more prone to do than conservatives...And you may well be right that I'm dreamin' when I believe people will discuss these issues rationally and dispassionately...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 6:01 AM
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Re: Not Only In America
Thanks, mousehop. You're right, America is certainly not in sole possession of CFs. There are also many among the Protestants and Catholics of Northern Ireland, for example...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 5:50 AM
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Re: My reply, Nauti, is too long to post here, so I made a blog post in
Benzinha, thanks for your long comment, the one on your Blog. I read it first last night, and I was a little worried, afraid that you might have had a bit too much tequila, and hoping you were alright. Then I read this morning's comment...
I went back to your comment from last night, in an honest attempt to deal with specific points. But I failed - there's just too much in that pot, including the kitchen sink. How you got that in there I'll never know...
But one question occurs to me: why are many liberals (not all, mind you), so shrill?
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 5:45 AM
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Re:
Thanks, TAPS! Yes indeed, the debate has begun. Its quality appears to be a little spotty at times, though...But I'm sure it's all my fault....
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 5:19 AM
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Re:
Thanks, BC! Always nice to see ya! I am trying desperately to get 'the facts on straight', but not everyone lets me, lol. In fact, one could see this whole debate as an instance of political humour! I am certainly beginning to see it that way...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 4:55 AM
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Re: Some thoughts triggered by your articles
Thanks, Aardige Afrikaner. You make some interesting observations, which could be part of another debate. A look at history is always instructive. In the most general terms I would say that both Judaism and Christianity have been transformed considerably since their beginnings, far more than is the case with Islam, which has changed very little. But all of that is not really germane to the issue.
I also agree with you that it would be ‘wholesome’ if the three religions could somehow ‘work together against the radical elements in all their midsts’. The trouble is, I’m not sure what that would look like in practice. What exactly would they do? Education? Try and persuade them to mend their ways and be ‘nice’? Use a little coercion...?
Who knows! But for the moment, in the here and now, it behoves us to pay attention to what is the case now. And the fact is that Islam is not just a religion but a political movement, many of whose followers have the avowed aim of destroying Israel specifically and the West in general...
At least I hold that to be the fact! What I would like to see is that someone could prove to me that I am wrong, refute what I have said, show me that the conclusions I have drawn are not accurate, that I have totally misread the MFs and their intentions...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 12, 2008 at 4:50 AM
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Naut.....
It appears a hijacking has occurred in your series.........but it is autumn and during Halloween straw men are everywhere.........good luck on getting it steered back on course......the Liberal though process is a rudderless scow adrift in the grayness of a fog bank. Never sure of it's destination...but ready to change everything upon arrival. Questions of any sort are called distractions, therefore not worthy of an answer.....the past does not have any relevance when pertaining to their positions, yet is of utmost importance when applied to your own. Take care my friend and have some fun.....but get a rather large bottle of aspirin.
I'm goning to sit back and enjoy the read ahead!
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on October 12, 2008 at 4:45 AM
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Re: Re: Nautikos
That last comment was directed at Krisles' comment....
posted by
benzinha
on October 11, 2008 at 11:53 PM
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Re: Nautikos
Further, I think you slipped a nugget in at the end that is worth its own series of study.....it fascinates me because it is so obvious in our culture... the liberal view which closes its eyes to the fact that black and white still exist, and which, in its fear of being seen as intolerant, tolerates even that which has as its avowed goal the destruction of the culture in which liberals can flourish…
How can even marginally intelligent people not see this? And you expect them to follow the issues you raise? I'm afraid you're dreamin'........
Grey colors most earthly activity and yet black and white do exist and liberals do not deny that. Why do you blanket claim that we deny that? You generalize, as do your friends, much too often. See, I'm writing like you.
I do not fear being seen as intolerant, I fear being seen as you, appearing as half informed and spreading what little you know as the gospel according to America.
Just because freakazoids have as their 'avowed goal the destruction 'of their own home countries' cultures and possibly mine and others' doesn't mean that I must let the actions, beliefs and intolerance and ignorance of some of those freakazoids drive me to Crazed Activity which serves no earthly purpose other than to further their freakazoid purposes, by creating more intolerance and hatred and fear in this world, especially in my American world.
THAT pleases the freakazoids, acknowledges and affirms their belief in their powers to freak out entire powerful nations for decades with one or two horrendous acts. They possess the power to have us remove our own protected rights, just to try to find them, like tiny microscopic needles inside earthly haystacks. Silly us for doing what we did to each other in the name of the freakazoids' terrorist tactics.
And, silly me, I'm dreamin', doin' a g drop like Palin with my real talk.
I know that I can't expect you to follow the issues that I raise, so, we're even, no??
posted by
benzinha
on October 11, 2008 at 11:50 PM
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To everyone:
I just go home, and it's late. I shall try and answer you all individually...tomorrow! Pleasant dreams!
posted by
Nautikos
on October 11, 2008 at 8:08 PM
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I am enjoying observing this discussion! Shelly
posted by
sam444
on October 11, 2008 at 4:33 PM
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Naut
I think it is fitting that Freakazoid is also a cartoon character on american TV.
posted by
Blue_feathers
on October 11, 2008 at 4:23 PM
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Re: Nautikos
I'm afraid I have to agree; there are liberals who ignore their own values in the name of tolerance. Those Danish Muhammad cartoons come to mind as a good example. All of Europe should have denounced the reaction of Muslims around the world, and stood up for Freedom of the Press. But they didn't. Some actually criticized the paper and cartoonist for being so insensitive as to offend someone. Personally, I didn't think most of the cartoons were worth the bother, but a couple hit the mark. After the reaction, papers all over the West should have kept publishing them every day until the Muslims learned better.
posted by
mousehop
on October 11, 2008 at 3:51 PM
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Ummmm.....that's bait and switch, isn't it....speaking of marginal smarts!
posted by
Krisles
on October 11, 2008 at 3:28 PM
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Nautikos
It is the age old switch and bait tactic or a sort....used in sales, used between couples in arguments and negotiations about everything from purchases to chores....and used in any discussion, it seems, that one wants to have about a specific subject. Look at the political landscape right now....as a conservative if I try to talk about Obama's background issues that bother me, the subject is switched to Palin....try to talk about McCain, and we're talking about Bush....staying on topic is seemingly impossible. So, my friend, good luck in your quest for a true debate.... I so strongly agree with you in every thought you voiced that you will get no debate from me. Further, I think you slipped a nugget in at the end that is worth its own series of study.....it fascinates me because it is so obvious in our culture...
the liberal view which closes its eyes to the fact that black and white still exist, and which, in its fear of being seen as intolerant, tolerates even that which has as its avowed goal the destruction of the culture in which liberals can flourish…
How can even marginally intelligent people not see this? And you expect them to follow the issues you raise? I'm afraid you're dreamin'........
posted by
Krisles
on October 11, 2008 at 3:27 PM
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Not Only In America
Actually, the conflict between Croats and Serbs is between Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics, both wonderful examples of CF's. America is willing to share that distinction.
posted by
mousehop
on October 11, 2008 at 3:09 PM
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My reply, Nauti, is too long to post here, so I made a blog post in
my Grandma Embedded blog as my answer to you. It is seventy pages long. HAH!
posted by
benzinha
on October 11, 2008 at 1:59 PM
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Re: Some thoughts triggered by your articles
exactly
posted by
benzinha
on October 11, 2008 at 1:57 PM
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Sorry, Naut. I thought I had lost the first unfinished comment but, lo and behold, here it is. I started again by trying to remember what I was saying and now there are two version of basically the same thing. You should probably delete the first unfinished one (or both if you wish--along with this.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 11, 2008 at 1:56 PM
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Naut, I'm so glad that you are finally getting your debate. Someone needs to take you down a notch or two. LOL
Actually, since the quality and depth of a debate improves with knowledge and skill of its participants as debaters, I am looking forward to witnessing this debate by reading what other bloggers, more learned than myself, have to say on the subject.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 11, 2008 at 1:54 PM
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Naut, I'm so glad your debate has finally begun. Someone needs to take you down a notch or two. LOL
Actually if there is anything at all that I am certain of from reading you now for a long time, it is that you pretty much have your knowledge back up ready and waiting able to answer any
posted by
TAPS.
on October 11, 2008 at 1:47 PM
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In media I approve clever catch words and phrases as long as th facts get on straight. Indeed they don't always on so-called liberal CNN and the conservative (Australian-owned?) Fox News Channel without the catch words. What happened to that Sunday night comedy program on Fox? I missed it in the hospital. Then there's still Larry King and Geraldo Rivera Bill O'Reilley's book plugs notwithstanding. Finally don't forgrt Katie Couric and your correspondence on Blogit. However do blog on loves. You too. That's what it's all about my friend. Noe other replies can deal with the specifics. I post a non-partisan fiction blog but I do a little political humor.
posted by
BC-A
on October 11, 2008 at 1:24 PM
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Some thoughts triggered by your articles
If we take a look at the religion of Moses,Joshua,etc under who's command the Israelites ,with its religion as part of the package, spread to a large degree by war and we look at the spread of Islam during and in the period after Mohammeds' life, there is not much difference in the approach and belief that military conquest is the will of God. This was the common tendency with humans all over the world at the time and still is with some people. During this period the passivists would have been the freakazoids. Though Christians are supposed to view God as the God of all peoples and should even love their enemies we still find this tendency coming to the fore amongst some Christians. On the other hand, in Islam there have been many Mystics who's teachings almost mirrors that of Yeshua in terms of its scope and the importance of Love and Peace. Unfortunately we always find some people in any group who are militant and thus freakazoids in favor of violent means. What would be really wholesome is if the Three streams/sisters of religion spawned from Moses could see each other as of the same goal and then work together against the radical elements in all their midsts. As long as any one of these religions wants to become or remain supreme whilst denying the validity of the other two there will be those who will feel justified in their violent efforts in all three camps. If Moses lived now, he would probably feel like striking them all with a staff instead of trying to talk some sense into them.
posted by
AardigeAfrikaner
on October 11, 2008 at 12:04 PM
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