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- Go to Great! We’ve got a Debate! Christian and Muslim Freakazoids...Part I
Re: In America, sam, we are arresting reporters and citizens for their
speaking out and for their beliefs at Republican national convention parking lots, see Democracy Now and other reporters being arrested at the National Convention....
so, you know that protesters in Islamic naitons will be murdered or imprisoned. That is why you don't see more and no one watches al Jazeera news or even BBC news, where you might see the stories and notice some small protests by some Very Brave individuals....
CNN and FOX, etc., don't cover anything outside the US unless it serves their purposes, whatever those might be from one moment to the next.
None of us inside America, looking only at American news know anything of what the rest of the world is doing or thinking about anything. And, the sad part is, most people truly don't care.
When France protests anything about us, we shout Screw France. When Scotland decides to withdraw from our support team, we shout Screw Scotland....dunno if they've actually done that yet, but they were discussing it.
If you are not with us then..........you are against us and the world is not like that, like a playground in the third grade of elementary school.
posted by
benzinha
on October 12, 2008 at 12:03 AM
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A very interesting debate, Nautikos, with good comments.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 11, 2008 at 5:15 AM
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Re: Wow, who would have thought, two posts in one night about my comments?
Muley, thanks again for your comment. I don’t think I suggested that it was ‘incendiary’, as indeed it wasn’t! I welcomed it, and would have even if it had been ‘incendiary’. But on to your other points.
Like you, I would hope that ‘the majority of Muslims have no gripe with us’, though I don’t know that, and neither do you. However, I strongly suspect that many do hold a gripe, which of course is not at all incompatible with them wanting to ‘live out their lives to a ripe old age’, and with not engaging in rash acts.
But my concern here is not so much with those, but with a doctrine which causes many to act in ways that makes hundreds of millions of people fearful to ‘voice their opinions’ because of the ‘dire consequences’ visited upon them by the possibly 10 per cent, who are radical! (That figure is one that has been suggested by Muslim analysts themselves, incidentally, which would give us 150 million ‘radicals’. Of course, not all of those would necessarily be willing to engage in terrorist acts...)
Like you, I am a champion for tolerance. However, I will never be tolerant of intolerance, especially not when it takes the pathological forms it does in Islamo-fascism, which is threatening ‘dire consequences’ for all of us...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 11, 2008 at 5:06 AM
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Wow, who would have thought, two posts in one night about my comments?
First of all, I have never written an incendiary comment here on blogit. I respect your views, but only hoped to show that the majority of muslims have no gripe with us, they merely hope to live out their lives to a ripe old age as we do. They however cannot rally to voice these opinions in our favor without dire consequences. Also, please remember, that they have at least as much propaganda thrown at them as we do. As for Kabir and shamus-i-tabriz, their collected works are available at Borders and other major book dealers. You will not find better mystical love poetry. If I may, I suggest reading my post "Tolerance". mtbb, Mike
posted by
muley12
on October 10, 2008 at 10:07 PM
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Re:
Thanks, Shelly! There's an army of Muslims out there who would never do anything 'nasty', but who, in their heart of hearts, applaud...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 10, 2008 at 6:30 PM
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Re: Nautikos - problems with the perspective of citizens of western societies
Gomedome, thank you for your insightful comment. I fully agree with your assessment. particularly that "In varying degrees albeit, but nonetheless, hatred of the west as a broad encompassing term, is a widespread sentiment in the Muslim world." The reasons for that are complex, and certainly involve, among other things, the history of the last two 250 years or so.
But it now appears as though the anger of the Muslim world against the West becomes increasingly channeled through and focused by the prism of the Muslim faith itself, which justifies and sanctions violence against non-Muslims, and has always done so. And it is also interesting that Muslims often justify their attitude towards the West by claiming that it has lost its spiritual bearings, that it is totally amoral...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 10, 2008 at 5:05 PM
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Re: Commons and Aristos
Thanks for your comment, mousehop! I fully agree that the 'common Muslim' is generally peaceful. The problem is that they form the 'nurturing community', as Pipes puts it, which at least
tolerates a high level of militancy...
posted by
Nautikos
on October 10, 2008 at 4:46 PM
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Nautikos - problems with the perspective of citizens of western societies
pertaining to the Muslim world are many.
We tend to attempt a rationalization from our own datum line and ignore the subtleties of the distinct aspects in how they view us. Where it is true that the extremists willing to commit acts of violence are a small fringe element within a much larger and divergent populace, the beliefs and sentiments that compel them to their violent actions are much more widely held. In varying degrees albeit, but nonetheless, hatred of the west as a broad encompassing term, is a widespread sentiment in the Muslim world. At least I can think of no other way to explain how an entire Palestinian community for example, of which we can be fairly certain are not all terrorists, finds themselves dancing in the streets at the news of the collapse of the twin towers. It is also the only way I can explain the lack of outrage and condemnation demonstrated by the general Muslim populace pertaining to terrorist actions.
When attempting to determine how they view us and why their condemnations of terrorist actions have been feeble a best, we must also consider what it is like to live in those parts of the world. Freedom of speech for the most part does not exist, societal pressures to conform are far more rigid, backwards and unwavering than we experience in our societies. Then there is good old fashioned inherent human bias, to which no one is immune.
posted by
gomedome
on October 10, 2008 at 12:26 PM
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Naut, herein is the revelation for me:
that the deeds of the “many zealot kooks” have not excactly created a storm of protest among those in whose name these acts are being committed... Shelly
posted by
sam444
on October 10, 2008 at 8:03 AM
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Commons and Aristos
While the common Muslim may be generally peaceful, it is not with the common that we must deal. It is with those who make headlines and make policy. Among Muslims, as among Christians, appeals to piety have a strong resonance among large segments of the population, and that drives the more extreme agendas into the popular political arena. Islamist extremists will continue to be a threat to everyone for generations, however peace-loving the moderates may be.
posted by
mousehop
on October 10, 2008 at 7:46 AM
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