Comments on What would it take for you to believe?

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: mousehop

You know what happens when you assume.  Yes, I have asked Muslims and Buddhists to explore Christianity through honest search, and they answer like you do:  they claim such an act is absurd.  But in fact you all say the same thing, which proves my point.  You're all equal.  And that can only mean one thing.  I don't ask atheists to pray to all these sundry gods because they know better, but if they did, they would end up at the same point.

Your answer identifies you as a Prostestant, but does not answer the requirement for baptism, which must be performed for one to be saved, as per the Catholic church.  And baptism must, apparently be performed by someone having authority to do so.  So believing is clearly not enough, according to both Catholics and Mormons.  You say works will follow from faith and belief, but James says "Faith without works is dead" which suggests, rather strongly, that one could have faith, but not act on it sufficiently to satisfy James, whatever God may say.  But as his book is part of your Bible, don't you have to acknowledge his authority, too?  I mean, if you have great faith in God, but are terrified of man, so you spend all your life in your own room, doing nothing good (or evil) aren't you "dead" according to James?  I know this sounds flippant, but after all, all the Protestant sects have abandoned the Biblical requirement for authority to perform such ordinances as baptism and the laying on of hands to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, but on what basis?  It seems to me that they choose which verses of scripture they prefer, and ignore the others.  I just can't see that kind of inconsistency in an omniscient being.

posted by mousehop on September 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: Re: mousehop

You are saved initially by believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth that Jesus was raised from the dead. Evidence of the authenticity of your salvation is "works". In other words, you will strive to adjust and transform your lifestyle away from certain and various former habits. You will become bothered by activities that previously did not disturb you. You will possess the desire to disassociate yourself from certain relationships. These are the "works" that are evidence e of your "faith". They go hand in hand and are twins. You will notice that you have a new appetite for "feeding" on the Bible like you did not possess before.

Genuine Christian denominations will always agree on the following foundational scripture: Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9.

If ANY christian sect, as you call them, deviate from that central, foundational scripture, than it is NOT christianity, it is a fraud. Those that have received results from the promises of God DO believe that scripture, and they act and conduct their lives as if the promise is true, which another example of the "works" that compliment the "faith." People that genuinly believe in Jesus and genuinely believe in the promises of Jesus, will ACT as if those promises are true, that action proceeding the original faith are the works that activate the promise.

The Holy Spirit is not confused. The Holy Spirit by definition cannot be "confused".

Bottom line: Have you ever considered, Mousehop, that maybe it is YOU that is confused, and not God, the Bible, and all of genuine Christian faith. Maybe you have it wrong and not God?

As for the final portion of your comment concerning Allah, Buddha, etc, it's outright silly. Have you ever asked those devout Muslims that you claim you know to do the same thing you are asking me to do? Have you ever asked a Buddhist to open their heart to Christianity? Would it ever occur to you to ask a Muslim or a buddhist or an atheist to open their heart to christianity?

No, of course you wouldn't.

posted by calmcantey75 on September 9, 2008 at 5:42 PM | link to this | reply

mousehop

Im not ignoring you, Im working on my responses to you. Keep checking.

posted by calmcantey75 on September 8, 2008 at 7:23 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: mousehop

Okay, let's begin with the fundamentals.  What is necessary, according to the Bible, for salvation?

Acts 16:31  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

James 2:24  ...by works a man is justified, and not by faith only

John 3:5  "...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matt 19:17 ...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

So, which is it?  Are you saved and justified by faith alone, or only by works combined with faith?  Or must you be baptized?  Or must you actually keep the commandments?

There are various sects of Christianity that take as primary each of these, and they go on to make excuses for why the others aren't quite correct in their obvious interpretation.  But it seems to me that the requirements for salvation are more or less the point of a religion.  So why don't they agree?

And again, I ask, if there are many, many people who have got results from the promises of the Bible, why do they not all believe the same things?  Can the Holy Spirit be that confused?  And why are all the "answers" subjective and internal, and show no measurable differences in their external lives?

Oh, and have you ever prayed to Allah about the truth of the Koran?  With a truly open heart, and giving your full attention and effort?  Because I know muslims who speaks much as you do, only about a different theology completely, but in nearly identical terms.  If you haven' found Allah, you must not really be open-hearted.  And Buddha, too.  And the Jewish God.  (Please don't try to tell me they're all one; their requirements are mutually exclusive.)

posted by mousehop on September 7, 2008 at 9:22 AM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: mousehop

I really don't know what else to say to you other than to each his own. I believe God is real and the Bible is true and consistent, and that God is Jesus Christ, and You do not. I ignored your assertions because you really cannot argue these things, they are matters of faith. The Holy Spirit is the One who reveals the truth to you, without Him yes the bible is a jumble of paradoxical stories and teachings.

But since I did ask for a crusade, jokingly or not, I'll put my money where my mouth is and take you up on your invitation to look clearly at the Bible. Things have been dull around here.

 What are the top three glaring inconsistencies n the Bible? I invite you and give you the floor to preach your message here and now.

Tell me, am I in danger of something? Am I pushing a dangerous message? What about all the people who did stand on the promises of the Bible and got results? THere are many many of them. What differentiates them from your camp? What is the explanation here? Are they all liars or are they all crazy fools?

posted by calmcantey75 on September 6, 2008 at 7:36 PM | link to this | reply

Re: mousehop

I would love for God to stop by for a chat.  Or even to strike me dumb (is that a Book of Mormon reference?  I don't remember for sure.)  I would like to see any reason to believe in a god.  Or maybe I wouldn't, because, frankly, the world views of most believers in religion are frightening to me.  The world is bad enough being run by humans. 

 

You focused on the claim I made that I had tested those promises of the Bible (which I have, and know many others who have, with similar results), but you ignored my assertion about the inconsistencies in the Bible.  They are well known and documented.  Promises in the Bible don't hold true, statements in Bible are inconsistent with each other, Christians have long battled each other over the meaning of the words.  What more does it take to prove that the Bible is man made?

I'm only pursuing this discussion because you state so positively your beliefs, and you asked for someone to start a crusade.  My crusade is to get you to take a clear look at the Bible.

posted by mousehop on September 6, 2008 at 6:21 PM | link to this | reply

mousehop

since my previous comment rambled and wandered a bit, let me cut through with this question:

 what exactly do you want God to do for you?

posted by calmcantey75 on September 6, 2008 at 1:52 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Certainty

Mousehop, I dont "accuse" you of anything. Your use of that term gives away much more than you might realize concerning the attitude of your heart. THis attitude colors everything. I dont contest the logical sentiment of your arguments, as your comments always carry a reasonable tone, that is not at issue. What I am addressing to you is simply this: you have chosen to withstand God and the evidence of this is contained neatly in this statement: "I state for the record that they are not true." When a person makes this choice, the bridge of communication concerning issues of faith with a person who has not become "hardened" falls into the ravine. Do you remember this snare from 2 Cor 4:4?:

posted by calmcantey75 on September 6, 2008 at 12:49 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: Re: Certainty

I think I do catch what you are trying to say to me.  I just don't buy it.  If you find no inconsistencies in the Bible, either you have not read it carefully enough or you use a different definition of consistency than, well, everyone else.

And my point, still, is that though you profess to speak the words of God, you have no basis for that claim except that you claim it.  You do not offer God as a witness on your behalf, and you flatly state that God will not appear as a witness to his Bible.  Why not?  "Ask and it shall be given."  "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, which giveth to all men liberally, . . . , and it shall be given him."  These are Bible quotes that simply state that answers will be given.  I state for the record that they are not true.

You accuse me of hard-heartedness because I do not accept internal emotional experience as equivalent to speaking to God.  Personal revelation is not impossible, given the existence of a supreme being.  But personal revelation from the same God must, of necessity, be consistent.  But claims of personal revelation from God are often mutually exclusive.  Therefore, someone, at least, is wrong.  As God does not intervene to identify the correct prophet, a rational person can assume that all are wrong.  That at least makes all equal, and is consistent with observable fact.  And it explains the historical and internal problems with the Bible.  We just accept them as human errors.

posted by mousehop on September 6, 2008 at 12:08 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: Certainty

A straight answer from God beyond MY power? You miss the point. You ARE hard hearted.  It is your hard heartedness that blinds you. There are no inconsistancies in the Bible. You do not see what I see, and that has nothing to do with intelligence. You are probaly smarter than me IQ wise. But at the same time you are not catching what I am trying to say to you. Why dont we try to part as friends, despite our somewhat ugly first encounter.? You seem to basically be an honest person.

posted by calmcantey75 on September 5, 2008 at 3:17 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Certainty

I don't see why getting a straight answer from God is beyond your power.  That makes no sense to me.  After all, it happened in the Bible, and the Mormons claim it happens to them all the time.

And the inconsistencies in the Bible are the fault of the authors, not the imperfect Christians.  And if I can't base my opinions about Christians on Christians, on what do I base it?  You already admitted that God has nothing directly to say in the matter.  I'm just supposed to take your word for it that you are right, regardless of what the Bible says or you and your co-believers do?  Which means precisely that the Bible and believers mean nothing.  So, on what do you base any belief in God, if you can't trust the Bible or believers?  And God won't answer?  Do you have any idea how you sound?

I am not hard-hearted.  I try to be reasonable.  A belief in God is not reasonable.  It doesn't matter how many times I revisit the evidence, it always comes out the same way.  Why can't you see that, in light of your own admissions?

posted by mousehop on September 5, 2008 at 3:08 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Certainty

The problem is, when I read through your comment I get the distinct impression of someone who has hardened his heart and already made up his mind that he will not believe no matter what, or maybe at some point you got burned and said the hell with it. A "reformed" christian, if you will.

Yes, what you ask for is wickedly seeking for a sign, because this particular "sign" is an impossibility and you know it. You cannot base your acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ on the behavior and/or perceived behavior of other Christians or perceived inconsistences within the Bible and reality, because this type of behavior will always be there unfortunately and it has nothing to do with you and Jesus. WHat you are demanding is perfection within the christian church and all "inconsistences cleared up before you will reconcile yourself to Jesus Christ.Tou cannot "opt out" because of this.

Do not be deceived. We ALL MUST personally reckon with Jesus and in the end it will be only you standing before Him. He will ask you "why did you not believe in ME?" You will say, "because your christians betrayed me and behaved hypocritically." Think about that.

Reconcile yourself to God now. In the next life it is too late.

But you're right in that their certainly would be much more power demonstrated by he Gospel if there was far less petty bickering and divisions among believers. That is what dilutes the power and the demonstration of anything worthwhile. There is no incentive to live the Gospel as demonstrated by the majority of what people see in the church. Dont turn your back completely and give God another chance. THink about it at least.

posted by calmcantey75 on September 5, 2008 at 2:09 PM | link to this | reply

Certainty

You claim an awful lot of knowledge based on a book of uncertain origins.  What would it take for me to believe?  Something consistent with the predictions of said book.  Starting with consistency within the book, but you can't offer that; the book's already been written.  But what about some evidence that living your gospel matters?  And how about some consistency of belief among Christians?  Why don't all you believers get together, and have God answer your questions rather than arguing over them?  Or would that be seeking for a sign?

posted by mousehop on September 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM | link to this | reply

Jesus is my best friend! I talk to Him all day long!  sam

posted by sam444 on September 4, 2008 at 10:34 PM | link to this | reply