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gapcohen - that was inevitable, I'm surprised you lasted as long as you did

If you reflect back on your comments, you've done everything but answer the question by utilizing aspects of your emotional attachment to Israel. Even in your last comment you offer something irrelevant in the percentage of total Jews. Or maybe I missed how this percentage is relevant to the fact that right up until the establishment of Israel, they were a minority in the region?

You can call this a problem of my ego if you want to, personally I could not care less but yes my perspective is influenced by how I view religion and religious beliefs.

The truth of the matter is that you have been treated with absolute objective equality by me but you wanted something different. You wanted me to respond to your emotional pleas with the same sympathies that you have not only become accustomed to seeing in others but are proactive in promoting. I understand why you do this, it is ultimately self serving just like almost every other action humans undertake but the fact remains that you ran into something you could not fully handle. (though again I feel compelled to add that you did pretty well considering)

You ran into a completely honest opinion that does not buy into the same things that you buy into.

Doesn't it suck when that happens?   

posted by gomedome on July 15, 2008 at 12:51 PM | link to this | reply

this will be the last time I comment and read you because it's tough to dialog with someone of such a superior mind.  That you hold your atheism in such high regard to the point of disrespecting anyone who adheres to any other religion is, in my mind, just as obnoxious as those Holy Rollers you disdain.  Why is the country of Israel where it is, you ask?  It's the land of the root of our religion - arid and unattractive as you think it is.  It's all over our Bible - the Torah - which, as opposed to how you feel about it being written by men of an obsolete time, is a living thing, which when studied, offers advice and messages (I don't mean coded or any such nonsense as that) that can be readily applied to the modern age.  That there have been "only a few hundred thousand Jews" in that land after the 7th Century may be true - but in a world of only 12 million Jews in total, even a few hundred thousand represents a significant percentage of the total. 

Tata - there's no room for my comments and your ego on the same page, so I'm bowing out.

posted by gapcohen on July 15, 2008 at 11:50 AM | link to this | reply

gapcohen - in suggesting that I need to take a trip to Israel to report on

it accurately is almost completely irrelevent to anything I have said.

I have made no attempts to report on current day Israel or speak as an expert on what exists there now, these things are all irrelevent to the initial question. You are attempting to justify the existence of Israel by the existence of Israel. An existence that for whatever reasons, right or wrong, heightens tensions in the region.

In reality, the Jewish state no longer existed as of the 7th century other than as a religious idea. At the beginning of the 20th century, there were no more than a few hundred thousand Jews living in the region which was populated primarily by Arabs, there are now approximately 8 million Jews, muhc of the Arab population has fled the region as refugees. Just from reviewing these numbers alone, one begins to adopt some sympathies for the Arabs of the region and particularly the Palestinians who decidedly came out on the short end once Israel was established. We could go around in circles some more, you could continue to tell me how wonderful Israel is and how I know nothing about it from never having been there but I'm sticking to the narrow confines of the discussion.

There was a follow up point to be made from my asking why that site was chosen. The initial question you have inadvertently answered but not in the manner that you think you have. The remainder of this comment will be in a post.

posted by gomedome on July 15, 2008 at 9:57 AM | link to this | reply

Re: gapcohen - I spent my formative years north of the 55th parallel and the

Firstoff, I appreciate your candor. 

I offer this as an explanation as to why I am able to speak of Israel within a very narrow confine of historical record with a dispassionate candor. I appreciate that my views on these issues are seen by some as crass, even as vulgar to the more sensitive but they are without inherent bias.

You say a lot in these two sentences.  As a journalist, I know that there are two kinds of stories.  Those I can be dispassionate about, and those that are emotionally fraught.  If I'm assigned to work on a topic I know nothing about, I can be unbiased.  But if I choose to work on a piece myself, it's generally because I have some vested interest in it.  A blog, by its very nature, is opinion driven.  You choose the topic - and in so doing, you must have some reason to do so.  To say that you are "dispassionate" is not quite accurate, as you took the time to write the post about this particular thing. 

That you can "speak of Israel within a very narrow confine of historical record" is telling, since it's a very narrow understanding of it, too.  Having never been there - either in Israel or the Arab States (Iran for a few minutes doesn't count!) - and then reporting on it is like expounding on a book without having read it, with your only source of knowledge other, possibly biased, reviewers. 

If you read my blogs in Religion you'd see that most of the times that I reference Israel, I also talk about those involved in building bridges with Arab neighbors there.  I have many friends there whose families have been there since before WWII, and some are deeply involved in Think Tanks and peace initiatives.

In one of your responses to me, you said that "conflicts in the region are exaccerbated by the presence of a Jewish nation State," a comment that, you can imagine, is extremely troubling.  Jerusalem has for 3,000 years been the de-facto capital of the Jewish Nation; it's mentioned hundreds of times in the Torah.  How many times in the Koran?  Zip, zero, nada.  So, it might be more accurate for you to say that conflicts are heightened by the presence of Arab Nation States there!  That you specifically said "Jewish" smacks of the faulty rationale as to why Jews have been kicked out (or otherwise eliminated) from every other country over thousands of years; Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust - you name it.  "The Jews are causing trouble - get them out of here!"

Gomedome - if you ever make it to Israel, to really get the picture there, you might be pleasantly surprised.  And if you do, and get your own firsthand impressions, then we can really "talk."

posted by gapcohen on July 15, 2008 at 5:00 AM | link to this | reply

gapcohen - I spent my formative years north of the 55th parallel and the

simple truth is that I don't think one single Jew lives that far north.

As a matter of fact, I can count on one hand the number of Jewish people I know by name. That is why I take exception when discrimination is implied and also at the root of why I will tolerate someone playing the persecution card on me for about 2 seconds. My ancestors had nothing whatsoever to do with the holocaust, not even remotely. This is the primary reason why attempts at garnering some form of guilt laden sympathy from me over this horrific episode in human history is doomed to failure. It is the foreign history of other peoples from my perspective. My ancestors were instead complicit in a much greater crime against humanity and yes there is a much greater atrocity than the holocaust; the decimation of the indigenous peoples of North America and other parts of the world.

I offer this as an explanation as to why I am able to speak of Israel within a very narrow confine of historical record with a dispassionate candor. I appreciate that my views on these issues are seen by some as crass, even as vulgar to the more sensitive but they are without inherent bias. I have also asked the question to those of Arabic descent from the region, why they were/are so pissed at the existence of Israel. Funny thing about the answers is that; where they are decidedly different reasons, they all fall into the same categories as the Jewish answers to my initial question. I have much more to say on this but will do so in a post, in the meantime; I came across this webpage, which as far as I can tell outlines the modern history of Israel as I learned it in school: HERE

posted by gomedome on July 14, 2008 at 10:02 PM | link to this | reply

Re: gapcohen - once again you wander into an emotional plea

I do not hold the sympathies that you have become accustomed to from Americans, nor am I a Christian

I'm also curious to know about your background.  What your own "social conditioning" is?  Unless you're a hermit, you've been conditioned socially!

posted by gapcohen on July 14, 2008 at 2:08 PM | link to this | reply

Re: gapcohen - once again you wander into an emotional plea

By the reasoning you are attempting to use, there is also ample justification for a Palestinian state,

Yes, I agree with this.  There should be a Palestinian State.  Most Israelis would agree with this statement.

posted by gapcohen on July 14, 2008 at 2:03 PM | link to this | reply

gapcohen - once again you wander into an emotional plea

I did not suggest that the Jewish state was merely plopped down down there recently, nor am I implying that the troubles in the region are entirely the fault of the Jews. The fact remains however that it is a troubled region, with many conflicts that are exacerbated by the mere existence of a Jewish nation state. A reality that was evident long before Israel was established.

By the reasoning you are attempting to use, there is also ample justification for a Palestinian state but that is an aside. What you confuse as being "Mel Gibsonish" is nothing more than your social conditioning raising its head and I take exception to such a suggestion. Again, I do not hold the sympathies that you have become accustomed to from Americans, nor am I a Christian who finds some perverse reasoning in ancient scriptures for the existence of Israel.

It is equally ridiculous to suggest that the troubles in the middle east are devoid of religious concerns. Iran's president for example, was not compelled to make his infamous vow to obliterate Israel from the map over concerns about oil. As you suggest; there are many factors, it is extremely complicated and solutions to existing problems are forever weighted by history but that is ultimately the point of my initial question.   

posted by gomedome on July 14, 2008 at 12:26 PM | link to this | reply

Re: gapcohen - I've never been to Israel, my stop was in Tehran

were the aspects of history and an instilled sense of belonging to the region, motivations and justification enough for all of the wars, deaths and continuing troubles that exist today? 

You are an apparently bright person, so this comment posed as a question perplexes me.  You seem to imply that the wars, deaths and continuing troubles in the Middle East are all the fault of the Jews (Zionists) which is rather Mel Gibsonish of you, don't you think?  Perhaps you might study that area of the word a bit more; from the 1200's to the modern era, the Ottoman Empire dominated that region - and its longevity is attributed to the fact that the Sultans allowed all kinds of religious groups, including Jews who have been there for thousands of years (as opposed to your belief that we were just plopped down there recently) to thrive and live together in peace.  Then, along comes the colonial expansion of the British (including India and Africa, etc.) and the resulting division of these regions into Nation States and now, on top of tribal conflicts, there are National armies, the rise of industrializations's need for oil - and you have a recipe for wars.  No Jews needed!!  To say that the conflict in the Middle East is about religion is as ridiculous as saying that the Troubles in Ireland are all about the religious differences between Protestants and Catholics!  It's all about the LAND, the RIGHTS to the LAND, and in the Middle East - its all about the OIL under the LAND! 

So, to answer your question, yes, the instilled sense of belonging to the region motivates Jews to remain and even move to Israel DESPITE the continuing troubles.  It is the Jews hope (which is what the National Anthem is called; - Hatikva - The Hope) that its neighbors will turn swords into plows. 

posted by gapcohen on July 14, 2008 at 11:30 AM | link to this | reply

gapcohen - I've never been to Israel, my stop was in Tehran

Of course Israel is something to behold today, 60 years of development will do that. I do appreciate the answers you have attempted to give and from them the initial question becomes more refined. History and an instilled sense of belonging to the region seem to be the summary of your answers. The sense of belonging has to be instilled by the individual's nurturing environment, or it simply would not exist to the degree that it does. You yourself present the perfect example of this, being born in the USA yet placing a reverence upon a nation state that is on the other side of the globe.

In asking the initial question, the term "a worthless piece of dirt" is simply a realistic summation of what existed there 60 years ago in comparison to a number of other places in the world where a Jewish state could have been established. As you know, there were alternatives offered by the world community. Excluding both the Fuju plan and Madagascar as forced settlement and throwing out the myopic attempts in upstate New York in the early 19th century, there were a few workable locations offered that were effectively much more valuable real estate (British Guyana probably heads this list). So now the question becomes; were the aspects of history and an instilled sense of belonging to the region, motivations and justification enough for all of the wars, deaths and continuing troubles that exist today?    

posted by gomedome on July 14, 2008 at 6:33 AM | link to this | reply

Why Israel Is Where it Is

Well, it's been there for 3,000 years!!  From ADL Handbook; The Jewish people are inextricably bound to the city of Jerusalem. No other city has played such a dominant role in the history, politics, culture, religion, national life and consciousness of a people as has Jerusalem in the life of Jewry and Judaism. Since King David established the city as the capital of the Jewish state circa 1000 BCE, it has served as the symbol and most profound expression of the Jewish people's identity as a nation.

I have no desire to get into an argument with you.  You say you don't want to "go back" to a region that "wears its religion on its sleeve" which indicates that you've been there.  I'm not particularly religious and neither are most Israelis I know there - so not sure what you mean, but I'm sorry you seem to have had such a bad experience in Israel.  Most people don't - and being there usually changes perceptions of what the place is.  It is also decidedly not a piece of dirt now - if it ever was.  Irrigation has made the desert bloom, the Golan Heights are as green as Ireland, and Israel leads the world in hydroponic agriculture.  About 10 percent of the world's flowers are exported from that little place.

As a travel writer, I'd love to go to Cuba, too.   I've never been there, so can't speak about it (except maybe via Michael Moore propaganda, Sicko!).  But I do know Cubans in Florida who were waiting for Castro to kick off so they could go back to their homeland.  An emotional subject, as it is for Jews around the world re: Israel.

By the way - my own kids are atheists.  No persecution in this house!

posted by gapcohen on July 14, 2008 at 4:54 AM | link to this | reply

gapcohen - You've just told a non believer in God that they do not know

what persecution is.

Do you really think that a statement implying that of a North American resident who does not believe in God could possibly be true? No one can touch the Jewish record for being shit on by mankind but atheists and anyone lumped in with them, run the nearest second. That is of course ignoring the poor.

I have absolutely no interest in going back to a region that wears its religion on its sleeves but I think you again missed the point. What is true today in Israel, coupled with your well intentioned emotional appeals do not diminish what you have yet to realize. I hold none of the sentiments that you are making your appeal to. Those outside of American social influence have a decidedly different take on these things so the question still remains?

Why did the State of Israel have to be built on a worthless piece of dirt surrounded by its enemies?  - The answers found in Americanized propaganda have all done what you have just done, played the persecution card first, then made the emotional appeal.  

Where I am interested in going is Cuba. I'm flying down there for a one weeker this Winter, there are some things in that country I want to see for myself.  

posted by gomedome on July 13, 2008 at 8:14 PM | link to this | reply

It is not a homeland movement to me or anyone else outside of Judaism.

Exactly - and had you been in Poland 1939, you and your family would not have been herded like cattle and sent to death camps, either.  The history of our people lies in every piece of real estate - in much of the "old stone and mortar" that you refer to - in the State of Israel, which is the only place in the world where Jews don't feel threatened by the general population. (Hostile neighbors are something else!).  As someone who has never been persecuted, I don't expect you to understand - but the country of Israel is a thriving democracy and center for science and technology, much of which makes the world a better place.  Unfortunately, the world at large sees two opposing forces (Muslims and Jews) making trouble for everyone else - both equally at fault.  Again, I invite you to visit there - most people who do get a very, very different perspective on that misperception.

posted by gapcohen on July 13, 2008 at 7:02 PM | link to this | reply

gapcohen - Re: Holy Land My Ass????

I was hoping that you would stop in but I think you've misunderstood my sentiments. What for example is a "western wall of a holy temple" other than old stone and mortar that has been given some elevated level of significance? There is no disputing the archeological significance of the area but the insistence that a certain chunk of real estate is somehow more holy than the next is an antiquated perspective that has caused the world far more harm than good. 

As for my "information" on the subject, you simply have to accept that our perspectives will be entirely different pertaining to zionism. It is not a homeland movement to me or anyone else outside of Judaism.   

posted by gomedome on July 13, 2008 at 12:14 PM | link to this | reply

Holy Land My Ass????

You've obviously never been there; Our Matriarchs and Patriarchs are buried in the Cave of Machpalah facing Mt. Hebron.  The City of King David (an excellent archeology site) sits right outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem.  And, by the way, Jerusalem itself is home to the Western Wall of the Holy Temple.  All characters and sites from the Old Testiment, our Torah.  So, I'm not quite sure where you get your information, but Zionism is less a "political movement" and more of a "homeland movement."  As an American born and raised Jew, I feel as if I'm coming home every time I step off the plane in Tel Aviv.  I do, however agree with your confusion about the inconsistencies of Christian thought as it applies to those who don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah.  Boggles my mind, too.

posted by gapcohen on July 13, 2008 at 8:53 AM | link to this | reply

Kabu - Asolutely I do - deprogramming is tedious and extremely repetitive

work.

posted by gomedome on July 12, 2008 at 8:56 PM | link to this | reply

I don't visit here often, but I pop in from time to time

You do go round and round the mulberry bush don't you!

posted by Kabu on July 12, 2008 at 7:42 PM | link to this | reply

Xeno-x - thanx, I fixed the link - it seems I'm doing more of that lately

I think this sums it up quite nicely:

"Two inherently selfish motives, each working the other for all it's worth."

That is exactly what has and is taking place, with all of the troubles it has caused over a nearly worthless piece of real estate. Holy lands my ass, there is nothing more holy about any piece of dirt over the next piece of dirt. If I were alive back then I would have suggested that the state of Israel could have been established anywhere on this planet. It didn't have to be plunked down in the middle of their traditional enemies.  

posted by gomedome on July 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM | link to this | reply

LornaDoone - Re: Those Wacky Zionists...

Hello and welcome to Blogit

I understand that Zionism is largely a political movement but the part that still puzzles me is how it is completey overlooked (and quite often wilfully), that Jesus Christ is not accepted as the messiah or recognized as the son of God by his own people. Then, as I mention in this post; it is believed by some Christian sects that salvation can only be attained by accepting Jesus Christ as lord and saviour. There would be no conflict here if the same Christians who hold this belief also believed that Jews are damned just like every other member of a "false" religion but this is not the case. They seem willing to overlook these inconsistencies simply to reconcile parts of the bible. Parts I might add, that were written by Jews themselves.

posted by gomedome on July 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM | link to this | reply

Those Wacky Zionists...

Alright, I confess - I have much sympathy with your views here. I don't get it either, certainly not in the spiritual or religious sense. It helps (and I use that term loosley) if you remember that Zionism is largely a political movement, and therefore inherently selfish. Hi, btw! and blessings.

posted by LornaDoone on July 12, 2008 at 4:28 PM | link to this | reply

I MENTIONED THIS STUFF BEFORE

These and other Christians have no real interest in the Jews other than getting another Temple build so that the "Abomination of Desolation" can "stand in the Holy Place" and pave the way for the return of Christ.

And the Jews want their support so they can have their land and get their temple eventually -- but they have no use for Christians other than what can be done for them.

Two inherently selfish motives, each working the other for all it's worth.

And both say good will come of it -- but each says it's their own good, not the other's.

I don't see how any good can come of it. We're already in Iraq, and on our way to war with Iran and the other 1 billion Moslems.

posted by Xeno-x on July 12, 2008 at 4:04 PM | link to this | reply

make it PageServeR to make the connection right u left off the R

posted by Xeno-x on July 12, 2008 at 3:59 PM | link to this | reply