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gomedome
You have some very fine points there. Yes, Lokmanya could not have, I am fully with you on this. I'll try and find out more. If you find anything, please let me know. I too am now very curious. Kudos to your 'diggy' nature.
I thank you for this .... and I love such healthy discussions.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on June 20, 2008 at 7:21 AM
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Bhaskar.ing - that sounds a lot like urban legend to me
Now that you describe it, I vaguely remember hearing about this reference to an ancient constellation existing in one of the books of the Veda. The problem at the time if I recall, is that it amounted to nothing more than a compelling argument. No one could name the specific passage, let alone the scientist or institution that provided the corroboration. Maybe you could enlighten us on these things?
Using the opinion of a man (Lokmanya Tilak) that died in 1920 and had a vested interest in creating a national identity for the people of India, weakens the contention. In that; his life span did not expose him to today's methods and knowledge of modern science. Further weakening the contention when you say much the same thing: "But now we have scientific methods which we can use to discover where the stars were at a particular moment in the distant past." . . . did we have these methods previous to 1920?
Don't get me wrong, I'm open on this subject but when a contention is made that steps outside of the conventional historical record, it must be fortified by more than anecdotal evidence. Why I assumed you had added another zero to the number is that a traditional timeline for most ancient books of this nature have similarities that correspond with how mankind organized itself into communities and experienced social change. Typically: there is an extended period of an oral tradition, sometimes lasting for several millennia, with the information then later condensed within a cohesive chronicle. Most ancient books of this nature appeared on the landscape in their initial forms, somewhere in the 2 millennia before the time of Christ. This is also thought to be true of the books of the Vedas but I am the first to admit that any ancient historical record is conjecture and subject to change with new discovery.
I would like to find out more about the 95,000 year old constellation.
posted by
gomedome
on June 20, 2008 at 6:52 AM
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Gome, there I go wrong again, but do I?
arGee has it convoluted to his advantage, and the discussion veering once again around 'Holy Books': "people attempting to gain knowledge from Holy Books, they will be nothing more than silly people chasing fairies and counting angels on the head of a pin". Though I loved that satrical expression and it had me laughing, his argument is untenable, because I clearly stated 'Vedic mathematics', and there can be nothing holy or unholy about a branch of science. Numerous sites are available on vedic mathematics, and none, I repeat, no one has ever been able to prove these calculations wrong.
As for the age of the Rig veda, it could be a conjecture, but a logical conjecture all right. In the Rigveda reference is made to a certain constellation of the stars which could only have occurred ninety-five thousand years ago. Because of this, Lokmanya Tilak concluded that the Vedas must certainly be even more ancient: the constellation of the stars as the Vedas describe it could only have occurred at a certain moment ninety-five thousand years ago; so that particular vedic reference must be at least ninety-five thousand years old.
That particular vedic reference could not have been added at a later period. Other, younger generations would not have been able to work out a constellation that existed many years before. But now we have scientific methods which we can use to discover where the stars were at a particular moment in the distant past.
The deepest laws of astrology were first discovered in India. In fact it was only because of astrology that mathematics was born. To make astrological calculations, first mathematics was needed. The digits used in arithmetic were invented in India -- the numbers one to ten, which exist in all the world's languages, are basically Indian in origin. And throughout the world the decimal system has been accepted: the decimal system was born in India, and it slowly spread throughout the entire world. When you say "nine" in English, it is simply a modification of the Sanskrit word nav. When you say "eight" in English, it is simply a modification of the Sanskrit word aht. The numerals one to nine, prevalent in all the world's languages, came into existence only because of the influence of Indian astrology.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on June 19, 2008 at 9:17 PM
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Xeno-x - Re: quite interesting
I don't want anyone to lose site of the fact that I was speaking tongue in cheek here.
posted by
gomedome
on June 19, 2008 at 1:55 PM
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quite interesting
at least you added a few pages to the textbook
and it isn't the shortest textbook in existence anymore.
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 19, 2008 at 1:34 PM
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Re: BTY – Gome…
arGee - the points you make I am quite aware of. I didn't have a chance to respond to the last comment but I agree, there is nothing in history that can be traced back 95,000 years other than archeological remnants of bone and firepits (excluding fossils). I assumed the number was a misprint with an extra zero. If that is the case, the chronology would be typical of similar timeline speculations that are based on a longstanding oral tradition that had been eventually organized into a cohesive chronicle.
posted by
gomedome
on June 19, 2008 at 1:34 PM
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BTY – Gome…
NOTHING ANYWHERE has been “traced back to 95000 years at the least.”
posted by
arGee
on June 19, 2008 at 1:11 PM
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Objectively, however, Gome…
Bring right for the wrong reasons doesn’t count. When Immanuel Velikovsky predicted a high surface temperature for Venus in the 1960s, he did so using arguments that were patently so wrong that the scientific community refused to take him seriously. Eventually, Dr. Willey Lee (Dr. Werner von Braun’s rocket-science colleague) decided to take him on in open debate. In 1969 I had the opportunity to ask Dr. Lee – tongue in cheek – what he thought about Velikovsky since he had obviously been correct in his prediction. Dr. Lee, who was short and had a heavy German accent, rose to his full height and with fists clenched at his side, pronounced loudly, “Immanuel Velikovsky is 120% wrong…period!”
It was amusing, but Dr. Lee was completely correct: Arriving at a correct answer by a false path is perhaps more dangerous than not having an answer at all. The Days and Nights of Brahma takes a demonstrably incorrect path to something that sounds like modern physical reality. This does not give it or its underlying philosophy any authority. Bashkar and his ilk seem to miss this point entirely.
So long as people attempt to gain knowledge from Holy Books, they will be nothing more than silly people chasing fairies and counting angels on the head of a pin.
posted by
arGee
on June 19, 2008 at 1:09 PM
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Good point, Gomedome
Science, objective art, exact science, are my explorations, be it from the ancients or the moderns, makes no difference, but wonder, yes .... mystified, by what means, after all, could they have? The Rig Veda has been traced back to 95000 years at the least.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on June 19, 2008 at 11:12 AM
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Bhaskar.ing -without the inherent bias caused by one's emotional attachment
to a particular dogma, I am able to look at these types of things objectively.
The Days and Nights of Brahma are truly amazing when considering the historical timeframe of their authorship. This is the type of thing that more people who would attempt to advance nothing but their own religious beliefs into public domain should be exposed to. We see example after example of what is being touted as a supernatural clairvoyance pertaining to what has been written by our predescessors in certain other holy books. This is one of my answers to those who would utilize tenuous conclusions of validity in respect to only their religion's doctrine based on prophecy etc. Where I tend not to ascribe any form of arcane knowledge to authors from before the modern era, we do have many instances throughout history of an advanced understanding of engineering and mathematics from ancient times.
posted by
gomedome
on June 19, 2008 at 10:28 AM
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Gomedome
This is such a brilliant article, and thank you so much for giving us the link which makes us stand in wonder as to how could those rishis in the Vedic age be so accurate in their calculation of the celestial movements and orbits of each individual planets? Your write, therefore, gives it more credence than I as a Hindu were to write it. The mahayuga, as given in the link cosists of four ages, the Satya yuga, Treta, dwapar, and the present that we are in, Kali yuga. Collectively it approximates to 4200000 years, also called the chatur (four) yuga; 71 such chaturyugas make a Manvantara, and 14 Manvantaras make a Kalpa, one day of Brahma, almost the exact calculation of G.E Sutcliffe. A day of Brahma, and an equal period his night, is also the life span of our solar system, and his age, 100years, of the entire cosmos. Similarly, there are also the minutest of the minute of unit of time calculation in the Vedic mathematics, that is almost 1600ths of a second, if my memory serves me right, each with different names according to their functioning. It's mind-blowing all right, accounting for even the earth's revolution aroud its axis, for which even in the modern times we have to accommodate an extra day every four years. I just enjoyed reading all this again in the site you have provided. My deepest regards.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on June 19, 2008 at 7:23 AM
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Dark_Moon - thank you
posted by
gomedome
on June 17, 2008 at 9:14 AM
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You are a real treasure Gomedome and treasure is very valuable. Moon 
posted by
magic_moon
on June 17, 2008 at 7:41 AM
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great
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 17, 2008 at 7:14 AM
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