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myrrhage - and it is such an obvious argument, I do not know how people can
simply ignore it.
I cannot say how and when I came to be attracted to girls, it just happened starting around aged 10. (Prior to that I was afraid of catching "girl's fleas", making them scream at the sight of snakes and other squirming things was a main pastime) . . . but seriously; who can claim that they know when they made a conscious choice to what gender they would be attracted to?
posted by
gomedome
on June 11, 2008 at 7:50 PM
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A long time ago a blogger on this site pointed out the flawed logic present in established religions today regarding homosexuality: Turning the argument on its head, if a person chooses homosexuality as a lifestyle, wouldn't that mean a person would have to choose heterosexuality? The only way the argument works is if first we admit that the choice exists to begin with, that either possiblity is intrinsically, biologically present in any basic human, God or no God, Christian or otherwise. Of course, then the argument doesn't work anymore. That other blogger was way better than I at articulating this stuff.
Of course, you know, admitting the above might make, like, the sun explode or something. Anyway, good post.
posted by
myrrhage
on June 11, 2008 at 6:14 PM
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Pat_B - Re: Gome, your simple question requires a complex response.
I feel like thanking you for your comment. I do not have the first hand experience that you have as a parent, my conclusions were made from a perspective further removed. Still, I think we have come to the same conclusions. I know that when I finally figured it out, I vowed that I would never do anything that would make such a large group of people feel as outsiders.
In the past I have mentioned that one of my proudest days as a Canadian was the day they passed same sex marriage legislation. Simply because the needs of a segment of the populace were addressed through all of the ignorance, misconception and prejudice that accompanied the debate. A true free society must be capable of doing such things.
posted by
gomedome
on June 10, 2008 at 9:36 AM
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vickip - I assume that when you say "forced to make a choice" you are
speaking of the choice between remaining in the closet and coming out.
That's one lousy choice. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be forced to ignore my own sexual preferences to keep other people happy. Then once it were decided that to hide it was no longer bearable, to be faced with what society dumps on gay people. To me that would be a horrible way to exist, which strengthens my belief that no one in their right mind would choose to be gay. It must be a biological need that is pre-determined by other factors.
posted by
gomedome
on June 10, 2008 at 9:30 AM
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Gome, your simple question requires a complex response.
First, a qualifier: I am the mother of four straight and two gay children. I have been lucky to be gender identified as female, as well as being physically so. I know people who feel they are male but were born in a female body, and vice versa. This is not homosexuality, it's a matter of gender identification.
Some people who are lucky enough to fit in with the 90% "normal" population group have an unreasonable fear of those who don't. They take a moralistic position, quote scripture, and generally make life miserable and dangerous for anyone not-them. The law calls attacks on gays and trans-gender people hate crimes with good reason.
Secondly, nobody would choose to be a pariah, to be hated by most others, to be gay in the face of such judgment and outright hatred. In my search for answers to the questions that come up when my kids came out, I've come to a conclusion that it's genetic, an accident of birth like having blue eyes or red hair. It's not a reflection of one's parenting, however flawed that may be. It's not rebellion against social norms. It's just what is. Having gay family members has enriched all our lives, taught us a great deal about human nature and rejection and assumptions. Most people aren't so lucky. :) pat
posted by
Pat_B
on June 10, 2008 at 6:27 AM
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To understand homosexuality ....
This is a very interesting subject and I think there are many variables to why homosexuals are who they are. If you believe God has indeed created human species, then you must concede he has created homosexual human species. And to understand what makes
some homosexuals who they are, you have to have a basic understanding of X Y chromosomes and the existence of genetic mutations.
Using chromosomes to define every human is faulty in that not all humans are merely XX or XY. Some are XXY, XO or Mosaic. Mosaic persons can test XX, XY, XXY, XO (and other variables) in just some parts of their bodies. Further complicating this human mix are naturally sex-reversed people, who may possess XX chromosomes with male anatomy, or XY chromosomes with female anatomy. In these cases and the in the cases of persons with opposite sexual organs, one would have to deduce their perceived homosexuality is NOT a choice at all. In fact, many do not see themselves as homosexual, but we need to assign labels, so they are stuck with the lesbian or gay tag. There are many who choose the lifestyle - but for many of these it is a choice between a life of misery to appease society, or a life of relative happiness to please themselves. Still, born that way but forced to make a choice. This is your blog gnome, but I could go on for days on this subject. Great post! By the way, am I spelling homosexual incorrectly? Spell check thinks this is not a word!
posted by
VictoriaP
on June 9, 2008 at 8:33 PM
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ZenMom -I cannot imagine being faced with that as a parent but I am certain
that nothing would make me turn my back on my children's happiness.
What type of belief system would fail a parent so miserably that they would be so stubborn in their own prejudices to boycott their child's wedding? Sadly, this type of reaction is not unusual amongst the "faithful"
posted by
gomedome
on June 9, 2008 at 9:53 AM
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mysteria - that is undeniably true but when we express such truths as
desires, we become as bad as the knuckleheads we would all like to be rid of.
posted by
gomedome
on June 9, 2008 at 9:49 AM
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sam444 - that's the entire point I am trying to make
Too many people have
"endured a difficult life for no fathomable reason whatsoever" The most incredible part of it all is that many of those who proliferate the prejudice and are at the root of creating and maintaining a hostile communal environment for gays, think they are doing so in the name of God. What does treating any group of people as second class citizens have to do with God? I'd imagine if this being existed, he'd be mighty pissed about that.
posted by
gomedome
on June 9, 2008 at 9:47 AM
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Xeno-x - I try not to read that stuff if I can avoid it
posted by
gomedome
on June 9, 2008 at 9:39 AM
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FineYoungSinger - "the gays" can marry in Canada as well
This has been true for a couple of years now and where the question of the world going to hell may be subjective, I can say with some certainty that gay marriage in this country at least hasn't sped up us going there any. As a matter of fact there haven't been any noticeable changes except for a small up-spike in the businesses associated with weddings. Appreciate as well that a lot of this business comes from the USA as gay couples undergo symbolic marriages, even if they are not recognized in their home jurisdictions. Basically, the sole effect of legalizing gay marriage in Canada has been a few extra bucks pumped into the economy.
As for the double standard you describe, isn't it typical? The one prohibition from ancient doctrine that survives in modern times is one that asks someone else to adhere while at the same time pandering to inherent human prejudice.
posted by
gomedome
on June 9, 2008 at 9:38 AM
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Re: The world might be a better place if some groups of people
I had a conversation w/ my brother about homosexuality........he thinks it's "wrong". Of course, I asked what he would think if his son told him he was gay and was getting married. He said he could not "condone" his son's "actions" by supporting his decision to marry......and definitely would NOT attend the ceremony or acknowledge them as a "couple". Meanwhile.......he attends mass EVERY Sunday..........sitting in the front row....preaching god's love. Very sad.........to me at least. (That's probably why my brother and I don't talk often.)
posted by
ZenMom
on June 9, 2008 at 9:23 AM
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The world might be a better place if some groups of people
suddenly vanished off the face, but I would not include gays in that column
posted by
mysteria
on June 9, 2008 at 7:47 AM
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My youngest brother is gay. I have never discussed anything regarding his sexuality with him because I didn't want to entertain a discussion on mine. I think some things are just private. For me he he is not heterosexual,
if that makes a real difference, and his identification is gay,
if that makes a real difference; but, the only thing that really matters is that he is my youngest brother and I love him. He is no more or no less a human being because of his sexual preference. I clearly attached to talking to a gay person and getting it straight from the source, if you will; my brother has endured a difficult life for no fathomable reason whatsoever. To take an example, I could go on with glowing accolades right on this spot and unless I told you he were gay, it would have no bearing and you would want to be his friend. I end it with gay and quite suddenly he would not even be asked to eat in the kitchen for he is perceived as less than human (my rant) in the eyes of many outside the 30,000 cited. My brother's sexuality didn't make him who he is, his character made him who he is. If folks would just seek to be
non-judgmental the world is so much clearer! People are beautiful gifts of God, each and every one. sam
posted by
sam444
on June 9, 2008 at 6:38 AM
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Gays are like Atheists. (see GEPRUITT)
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 9, 2008 at 6:19 AM
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What, am I going to be posting comments one word at a time now!!!
JEEZ!.....ahem........what I was about to write was:
It's difficult to get an accurate statistic because, just like anything else, people are individuals, and the more you try to pigeonhole people as "gay/straight", the more clear it becomes that the issue is not as cut-and-dry as it first appears.
You bring up sin---a little anecdote for ya---a friend works in a Christian bookstore, where the issue was heavily discussed. "The gays can marry in California," they all complained, "the world's going to hell!"
My friend replied to several of them, (those whose sexual misconduct is rather well-known at their own bragging mouths), "That's right, the gays wanting a recognized relationship are the ones that are ruining the world. Funny how you can still bang whomever you want, whenever you want. Isn't fornication still a sin?"
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on June 9, 2008 at 6:05 AM
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good post....as usual, Gome.
I
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on June 9, 2008 at 5:47 AM
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