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TAPS. - sad is the only way to describe it
posted by
gomedome
on June 1, 2008 at 12:27 PM
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gomedome, Did you ever read this? It made me sad.
FOSSILS
by J. T. Barbarese
When he was young he used to spend the whole summer
in the abandoned slag heaps around the old mines
outside the city of Scranton. It would take him hours
to pick through the shale stacks, the sweat writing lines
in the dust on his face, and the old ball peen hammer
slung from his belt pinching his belly button.
Some days there was nothing to read but the signatures
of ice and erosion and tools. Then he'd find one,
a slate unnaturally filigreed with the fright masks
of a trilobite, ferns, the inferior commissures
of ancient clams. He would wrap them in moist newspaper
and carry them carefully home. Once his teacher asked
him to talk to the class about fossils.
Satan plants them to trick us,
he said. When I get home I smash them to pieces.
J. T. Barbarese teaches English at Rutgers University. He is the author of New Science (1989) and of a translation of Euripides's Children of Heracles (1999).
posted by
TAPS.
on June 1, 2008 at 11:53 AM
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Re: TAPS.- no actually I didn't think that but I must admit that my reply
Its okay. It just surprised me as you are so articulate and I suddenly had the feeling that someone thought I was wishy-washy (horrors to an opinionated person like me. LOL).
posted by
TAPS.
on June 1, 2008 at 11:45 AM
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TAPS.- no actually I didn't think that but I must admit that my reply
is ambiguous enough in its wording to suggest as much.
I was attempting to say to you as a person that is obviously able to reconcile your religious beliefs with scientific, archeological and palaeontological discovery, that I am surprised that some folks are not able to do so.
My apologies for the confusing way I phrased the comment.
posted by
gomedome
on June 1, 2008 at 11:38 AM
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Idyllwilde - in answer to the questions you pose:
Intelligent Design (ID) may in fact be enveloped by Creation Science (CS) and is its fundamental cornerstone but CS utilizes the words of the bible to "prove the errors" of and refute traditional scientific thinking. With the sole purpose of proving the words as found in the bible as being inerrant, reality be damned.
My suggestion that money always seems to be the motivation of CS proponents is admittedly a harsh observation but I have yet to see or hear of anyone advancing CS who is not hustling a buck. This in itself removes any form of real integrity from what they are attempting to refer to as a science. Their meal ticket relies entirely on them upholding their foregone conclusions . . . science is not supposed to work that way. At least real science.
It is virtually impossible to draw the correlation between what you think I "believe" and what CS proponents believe. What I believe is subject to change as new facts are discovered. That cannot be said of religious beliefs in a general sense and especially of a small group such as CS proponents. Who are working from a position of self interest, to refute widely held scientific conclusions with ancient dogma, while depicting those who hold real scientific views as the enemy and utilizing nothing more than obfuscation and nonsense to uphold their views.
posted by
gomedome
on June 1, 2008 at 11:31 AM
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Re: Re: TAPS. - I often wonder what compels some people to adopt an either/or
Wow, gomedome, because of Idyllwild's comment, I just realized that you think I have adopted an "either/or" mindset about it. I think perhaps you misunderstood me. Not at all is my attitude one that "either/or" is fine with me. What I tried to explain to you was, as the Bible declares, "...all things work together for good to them who love God...." I believe that includes everything from the beginning of time to the end of it. I may not understand something, but just because I might not, does not make it invalid.
posted by
TAPS.
on June 1, 2008 at 11:30 AM
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Re: TAPS. - I often wonder what compels some people to adopt an either/or
I am rather confused here...(this is no big surprise, but I would like to be enlightened)...when you talk about creation science, are using a different name for intelligent design? (I don't want to be one of your evil posters arguing about communism in a socialism post
)
If so, I can't even comprehend what the dinosaurs have to do with theology, or bibliology (I just made that word up, I know) or religious history. I mean, I have a passionate interest in dinosaurs, fossils and evolution, but why is this a problem when confronting creationists?
If something is scientifically proved to be true, then it is true, and you will find nothing to refute it in the bible. You may find people who reject it, but that would be their bit of baggage.
I'm thinking that your theory about $$$ is not correct for the most part. When people truly believe in something (as you obviously do), particularly when it has to do with the spiritual life they find it necessary to help others, because they care for their souls. Not always the case, but in general.
Anyhoooo...if I have the definition of creation science wrong, please explain what you mean by it. Thanks!
Juliette
posted by
Idyllwilde
on June 1, 2008 at 11:00 AM
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TAPS. - I often wonder what compels some people to adopt an either/or
attitude towards science versus faith.
Science simply chronicles what is and attempts to explain it to the best of our abilities, utilizing our collective and accumulative knowledge as a basis for conclusions. Yet for reasons that always seem to be centered around selling a book about some religious perspective to the gullible, we see all persons involved in scientific endeavors vilified and accused of being part of some grand conspiracy. I saw no evidence of a conspiracy at Drumheller, I'm sure you did not see a conspiracy being perpetrated in Colorado or Utah. It is easy to see where this notion comes from but the surprising part is how prolific and widely accepted it is.
posted by
gomedome
on May 27, 2008 at 9:41 PM
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I love a good mystery. To me, the best mystery of all is that of creation of the Bible times and how the dinosaurs of 160 million or so years ago all fit together. I haven't been to Drumheller, but I have, many times been to the Dinosaur National Monument of Colorado and Utah and the paleontology lab there. It is a place where 1500+ dinosaur fossils have been uncovered and where you can see many still embedded in the rock layers of the geological formations. I've also seen las icnitas in the Iberian Peninsula and even fossils of dinosaurs in the flat lands of Kansas. Nothing that I have seen or read has, in any way, made me feel that I must choose between my belief in God and my belief in science. Someday, it will all come together and I will say, "Wow, how come I didn't think of that?"
posted by
TAPS.
on May 27, 2008 at 11:45 AM
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I love the dinosaur digs as well. The debate on religion will continue on. I find peace in my beliefs. sam
posted by
sam444
on May 27, 2008 at 10:17 AM
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Xeno-x - not so surprisingly, the vast majority of creation science
proponents make a buck from their "science"
By different methods such as books, lectures or theme parks as examples. That reality in itself denotes a lack of integrity in their methods of inquiry. Where a paid researcher cannot be compared to this type of commercial effort is in that upholding a specific belief is not necessary for them to keep their job. On the other hand, the creation science proponent would get kicked off the gravy train if they ever accepted facts that dispelled the myths they are selling.
posted by
gomedome
on May 27, 2008 at 9:33 AM
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TAPS. - I feel the same way, it is intriguing
The one aspect I found very interesting at the site was the natural history museum that conducted regular tours. The tour guide was the first to admit that the chronicle is incomplete and is always being added to.
posted by
gomedome
on May 27, 2008 at 9:26 AM
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they live with one explanation, these creationists
and it would seem their entire faith and life depends on it.
so that when another explanation arises, however valid, it threatens what they have built their lives on.
so they attempt to fit the new data into their embraced explanation so that the do not have to discard it.
not realizing that their explanation is quite faulty, having been brought to them by humans who did not know of the new explanation, to whom the old was all there was.
and now there is more. They have to realize that.
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 27, 2008 at 6:47 AM
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There is not much more interesting than visiting a dinosaur graveyard and watching the paleontologists working at slowly unearthing bones of creatures we have never seen living and that tell a fascinating story of life and times. There's not much more fun than digging out fossils from the stratum of a fossil bed, one layer after another. One bit of info leads to another and creates a hunger for more. Its actually quite exciting.
posted by
TAPS.
on May 26, 2008 at 11:04 PM
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