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Re: FineYoungSinger - the problem with arguing the opposite - aside from the
I can't agree that the viewpoint defeats itself. I don't believe that the declining number is a reflection of actual "possessions", but of a change in the belief systems of the 20th-21st century Catholic. (Just to clarify, possession is ultimately a spiritual sickness; not to be confused with mental illnesses, which of course are actual illnesses that respond to medical treatment.)
When polled, a large number of Catholics (religious AND laity) do not believe that satan exists. This is a number that has declined over particularly the last 30 years. If a member of the clergy does not believe satan exists in the first place, then why would he or she suggest satan/demons as being the root of a problem? Why, if a member of the laity does not believe satan/demons exist(s), would they bother to seek out exorcism? I believe that the declining numbers tend to reflect more the beliefs regarding the existence of satan, evil, hell, demons, etc., and not the actual instances of possession.
I also point out that there has been an increase in the number of possessions reported among non-catholic denominations, particularly among the Assemblies of God and other evangelicals. (I don't count among these groups the myriad of renegades out there, such as the nutjob I described in a previous comment.)
Granted, I'm on the fence when it comes to my own beliefs regarding possession; mostly because I've never seen or experienced anything like it. I don't, however, discount the relevance of the experiences of others as figments of their imagination brought on by their belief systems. Matters of faith are very complicated, no matter what you might believe; and because we can't prove empirically one way or the other the existence of God, angels, satan, demons, we can't therefore dismiss any unexplained activity one way or the other.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on February 25, 2008 at 1:09 PM
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MyrddinWyllt - You are simply meandering through the nuances of definition
outlining how the concept of evil spirits has evolved into common use in English vernacular.
Yes, the thoughts and temptations we all have can be analogous with evil spirits or demons. And yes, there is a parallel to be drawn between giving in to these temptations and being "possessed" by them but there is little problem with these concepts if they are described and understood as being figurative. It is the literal interpretation that defines evil spirits as real entities capable of taking corporeal form and wreaking havoc with the lives of humans that is the issue. Beyond a figurative concept, the deflection of personal responsibility becomes more acute, simply because if the entity is considered real, so too is the ability to ascribe blame to it.
I have no problem with how uses of terms derived from the concept have evolved and permeated our everyday language. A bottle of whiskey for example, is definitely full of "evil spirits".
posted by
gomedome
on February 24, 2008 at 3:12 PM
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Re: The reality of Demons
Check my blog for a less error ridden version. This spellchecker really sucks.
posted by
AardigeAfrikaner
on February 24, 2008 at 12:50 AM
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The reality of Demons
I fully agree that there are no Demons flying through the air with black wings and sharp teeth infesting human bodies and then coming out after an exorcism with lots of noise and a foul stench. I do not agree that there is no such a thing as a demon. It all depends on how you define the word "demon". Just like all the religious garbage being sold by the established and murderous traditions (we all know who they are) the myths are based on reality but are no longer representative of reality.
A Demon is simply a thought that has unwholesome consequences for whoever gets attached to the thought or attempts to push it away. If the thought "I would like to kill this fucker!" enters your consciousness it can be defined as a demon arising. If you simply remain aware of this thought and it dissolves by itself as al thoughts do you have no further problems from this "demon". If you however strengthen it by going on a ride with this thought and creating a train of imaginings of how you will go about killing whoever, you are strengthening the demon. If you become obsessed with this line of thinking the demon is starting to posses you. If you eventually act on this train of thought it may well be said that the demon made you do it. This is not to be used as an excuse for murderous behavior. You didn't have to react to the first thought that came up. The other side of the coin is suppressing the thought. The energy of that thought does not dissipate but sits in you in the form of nervous tension. If you build enough of these suppressed thoughts up your whole body becomes sick and you may eventually have a "nervous breakdown. That is another way that the demon has possessed you. The only cure for demon possession is therefore: Mindfulness, skillfully meditation and countering the tendency to have such thoughts arise in the first place by practicing the Four Great Catalysts of Being: Equanimity, Love, Compassion and Joyfulness. Any other ritual is basically useless and only strengthen the belief in the fantasy a person has created himself. This "fantasy" is unfortunately shared by others - the 100th monkey principle. So yes, don't believe in the crap the Big Churches are preaching, but do not give your own demons power either. 
posted by
AardigeAfrikaner
on February 24, 2008 at 12:40 AM
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Kabu - I would concede that there are things that people sincerely believe
to have happened, I never doubt the experience itself, . . . just the explanation.
posted by
gomedome
on February 22, 2008 at 6:43 PM
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MandaLee - if you can make a case for saying such a thing then by all means
My contention however does not have a converse. It is a well founded argument in this particular instance, that no one has yet refute. Tit for tat is not a refutation.
posted by
gomedome
on February 22, 2008 at 6:41 PM
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there have always been charlatans ready to take the money or to have
control over people. But there are things that really happen.
posted by
Kabu
on February 22, 2008 at 6:38 PM
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Hi Gome,
Whose to say unbelief doesn't cause problems?
posted by
Amanda__
on February 22, 2008 at 2:32 PM
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Transcendental_Child - this has probably been tried
A number of deaths have occurred from do it yourself home exorcisms over the years. the result of everything from beating the victim, to poisoning, to you name it.
posted by
gomedome
on February 21, 2008 at 11:13 PM
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Perhaps...
we could use a bit of trepanning to open their minds...
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on February 21, 2008 at 6:55 PM
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FineYoungSinger - the problem with arguing the opposite - aside from the
realities I mention in this post, is that the opposing viewpoint defeats itself.
This is so because of the fundamental argument that acompanies demonic possession in that the modern world, with its perceived declining values is sliding into a moral abyss by allowing Satan to excercise his will. If Satan is exercising his will, how is it that demonic possessions have declined to insignificant numbers in a historical perspective?
posted by
gomedome
on February 21, 2008 at 2:12 PM
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eh.
one could argue the opposite. Well written, anyway.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on February 21, 2008 at 1:53 PM
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Re...let them down. in the most worst possible way...
posted by
mysteria
on February 21, 2008 at 12:51 PM
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mysteria - that is one of the negatives of having faith
I wouldn't suggest that the positives of having faith are outweighed by the negatives in a broader scope, but when someone is led to believe that such things as exorcism are real, their faith has let them down.
posted by
gomedome
on February 21, 2008 at 12:47 PM
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gomedome it is amazing to me how so much of the dark age
can exist today's light. Many people are blind to the bleeding obvious...Mind Boggling!
posted by
mysteria
on February 21, 2008 at 12:41 PM
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Xeno-x - exorcism is certainly a growth industry
The funniest part is that no one is saying "whoa, wait a minute" . . . just about every last case on record in the last 30 years has the subject re-enacting scenes from the movie The Exorcist. Talking in low gravely tones to sound like Satan speaking from the depths and a little vomiting for good measure. Where it has advantages over other religious con games such as speaking in tongues is that it carries with it the deflection of personal blame. Not just for reprehensible acts but also for more mundane things such as being to lazy to look for a job or spousal abuse. In many cases the phenomena of the rising occurances of exorcism in the last few decades takes on many of the same similarities as the alien abduction stories of the past. It is nothing more than group hysteria derived from prior knowledge and fortified by belief.
posted by
gomedome
on February 21, 2008 at 12:31 PM
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EDUCATION DISPELS MYTH
That is why there is less belief in exorcism in the U.S. and Western Europe and other parts of the world than there once was.
And there persists belief in certain other parts of the world.
We know that belief in witches and demons still persists here and was quite widespread into the 20th Century.
Of course, speaking of making $$$ out of exorcism, the hospital here in St. Louis where the actual exorcism took place that inspired the movie could be adding extra $$ to their coffers --they are a for-profit, privately owned institution now, and they could be wise by allowing tours of the wing where this occured.
But that's another story. I have visited patients there, who knows how far away from the event. Maybe I could make money out of my story -- draw out the visit and the walks down the hallway and into the room, or to the cafeteria -- wouldn't you think there might be residual spiritual activity there somewhere? Some of the food . . .
posted by
Xeno-x
on February 21, 2008 at 11:49 AM
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TRUE, VERY TRUE
posted by
Xeno-x
on February 21, 2008 at 11:16 AM
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