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kooka, I have a bad habit of analyzing the hell (no pun) out of things
to the point of forgetting why I even started analyzing it in the first place. Your right, I do use it basically as a guide. Have faith in what it was written for, have faith that I'm human and God can't possibly expect me to fully understand some things but still loves me because I WANT too so bad....and just try to do like the good book says. In so many words...lol
posted by
Kiddo75
on February 13, 2008 at 11:21 PM
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Fair enough
Continually growing, adjusting, and hopefully showing improvement, while learning that some emotions simply need control measures, not expression.
posted by
thoughtfulness
on February 13, 2008 at 9:48 AM
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thoughtfulness, you're reading too much into the questions
While I take it as a great compliment that my ideas get you thinking, I am not trying to say you are wrong to believe as you do.
What I am trying to get across is that if the religious ideas themselves had no logic to them, you wouldn't be following them. There is logic in believing you should not kill or steal or cause problems. As religion grow the more illogical aspects get left behind in order for the beliefs to keep on making sense. For religion to grow more, believers need to see what it is they still try to follow that really do not have any logic to them.
If you church were to tell you that God wants you to go and commit suicide at some point in order for the angles to pick you up in their space ship, would you think that made sense? Is there any logic to that at all? More than likely your belief shave much more logic to them than you grasp. And if you really looked at the big picture of it all and put your faith against logic, you might find that some aspects that never felt right or you really never thought about just don't work, but the essence of your beliefs should still be able to hold up against logic.
And it is really not a bad thing to examine faith in such a manner in order to clear it up and get it more focused. I personally think that if most believers were to clean up their beliefs and drop away the aspects that just do not hold up to logic, then we would see a much healthier set of religious ideas being preached and promoted.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 13, 2008 at 9:35 AM
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Kiddo
They may not seem logical, but more than likely if you look at what you get out of them, there is logic there. You pointed out that taking the Bible literally does not work and so you most likely view it as a guide and take the stories as metaphorical, but a big part of faith is finding what you need in the religious ideas that you have been drawn to.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 13, 2008 at 9:25 AM
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Comments on other post as well this logic deal put to rest
Okay, I read over all that was said, and my definition faith doesn't rest in logic, and yours that faith holds no logic seem to draw the same conclusion or basic point. I have tried my best to figure out what it is that bothers me.Part of it is the way in which you phrase these questions about faith and beliefs, does it hold up? well does it? how could it possibly make sense? appears to me to imply I am foolish and make no sense. and my perception of your true intentions, (I will never know) and the actual words in their arrangement, may be perfectly harmless. Anyway no harm intended, my brains still growing and I know my faith doesn't have to hold up to logic for it to be real, and very precious to me, I'm quick to protect it from ridicule, real or perceived.
posted by
thoughtfulness
on February 13, 2008 at 9:03 AM
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kooka, I try my best not to use logic with ANYTHING these days, that
I want or need to hang on to emotionally to get me through the day..lol. Honestly, I think logic would crush any (hell, it DOES IMO) idea of "God" or anything Holy (Lord, I'm asking for some nasty comments!). I just grit my teeth and think past it for my greater good of needing something to have Faith in..lol. I mean, Adam and Eve, talking snake, a whale eating a dude and h set up camp in his belly for a few days waiting for him to blow him out to run off some heathens? Greater good...lol. Faith...
posted by
Kiddo75
on February 13, 2008 at 8:52 AM
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thoughtfulness
Answer this simple question: Are your beliefs able to hold up to logic? Seriously, do your beliefs make sense? Not the idea that there is a God, that really is something just outside of logic at this time, although I do believe that someday if we keep working at it we will have the needed knowledge to know for a fact if there is a God out there, but I am talking about the basic ideas of your belief. How well does you daily faith stand up to logic? Do your actions based on your faith make sense and seem reasonable? And of course your own question there, do those feeling that touched your soul hold up to logic?
Most likely you'll like the post I am about to write here.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 13, 2008 at 8:08 AM
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Glad I am amusing-forget the dictionary then
More specifically, and hopefully clear, my personal definition of faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. My faith is secure in how I have felt God and his spirit wash over me, not in words I have read and want to embrace. So I guess for me, the better question would be, "can these feelings that have touched my soul, stand up to logic? I think we share the feeling that the other is somehow missing the point. The beauty of faith, is the only thing it needs to stand up to is the difficulties in life. Always a pleasure kooka.
posted by
thoughtfulness
on February 12, 2008 at 6:26 PM
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thoughtfulness
Always find it amusing when people start to use definitions, since they rarely show all definitions.
Here's the one I found in the new Webster Dictionary:
Faith - belief, esp. in a revealed religion; trust or relevance; a system of religious doctrines believed in; Loyalty; pledged word.
Nothing about lack of logic in that one.
With an idea like faith, we are each going to at some level have our way to define it. I will admit there are some levels of faith where people have to completely give up on logic to believe in and that is a very dangerous place, as we see with various cults like the one where they committed mass suicide in order to catch a passing UFO that would take them to Heaven. But just by definition alone, faith does not have to be absent of logic.
Besides, faith itself need not be logical. Faith in God really isn't. The logic is not in the faith itself, but in the idea surrounding the faith. The Bible tells people to sacrifice animals, but logic says that there is nothing of value in that, so someone looked said I am not going to put faith in sacrifice animals and things changed. In fact it you really look at it all (The big picture), most (Not all regretfully) of what has remained as part of the religious ideas of modern Christianity are the more logically presented concepts of the Bible. Over time the Christians have seen the illogically aspects of the Bible and dropped them from their practices and beliefs and figured out some justification after the fact. Christianity today is much more logical it the ideas it follows than it was a few hundred years ago.
Why would anyone wish to put their faith in something that clearly didn't make sense or was untrue?
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 12, 2008 at 4:53 PM
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Re: Got the big picture-after the big dictionary..I'm getting smarter!
oops! thought I lost it and tried to say it better, not repeat it, sorry.....
posted by
thoughtfulness
on February 12, 2008 at 4:44 PM
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Got the big picture-after the big dictionary..I'm getting smarter!
You do cause my brain to work better, with all these posts, so thanks for that. I had some trouble with the last statement, "those who say faith should have nothing to do with logic, to me says someone does not understand the big picture at all" While logic-"a system of reasoning" is crucial in life, in fact, and by definition, faith-"belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence" not only "should have nothing to do with logic" but appears as though it simply has nothing to do with logic. Come on now, time to try another angle and I'll be waiting with my "mode of reasoning" and perhaps my dictionary (to keep me up to speed) for the next interesting challenge you pose.
posted by
thoughtfulness
on February 12, 2008 at 4:42 PM
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Got the big picture, after the big dictionary..... I'm getting smarter!
I have to say, you make me use my brain harder. I'm not always articulate enough to say what I mean, but this time I used the dictionary first so I could keep up to speed. Your last statement, those who say "faith should have nothing to do with logic, to me says someone does not understand the big picture at all" by definition has some problems. Logic- "a system of reasoning", is crucial, yes, but, Faith-"belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence" actually changes the "should have nothing to do with logic," part of your argument to the truth that it, "in fact ,has nothing to do with logic "by its very own definition. Hope I said that right. Come on now, just accept that logic, proof, rational thought, whatever, has no business rewriting the dictionary. Faith, belief, they are what they are, so let us have them, without suggesting this means we don't get it. Try some new angle, and I'll try and be ready to back up my mode of reasoning. Good post though!
posted by
thoughtfulness
on February 12, 2008 at 3:40 PM
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I guess kooka...
..that's why some of the more 'no-logic please' folks don't want Science messing with their beliefs. As you say though...logic or not does not confirm the existence of a God but to deny logic is just...well....illogical!
posted by
ginnieb
on February 12, 2008 at 3:20 PM
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