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Re: b2008 - of course they are fake
And you just might be true about it all. And then again, it could be because one of faith want to believe something that beautiful could be true. That, to me, is a good possibility also. I love hearing good stories that make people feel good, do good things for one another, and be grateful for life itself. Yes, I guess you can call me "gullible" for sure but it's just a feel good experience. You don't like "feel good" experiences? You don't believe that maybe subconsciously, we might have caused ourselves to be healed? Could that be a possibility then?
Another thing, I know you're an Atheist but were you ever a teacher? Because you connect with people through good communication and I like that. Have you ever thought of teaching? You done some thorough reading I see and have a vast knowledge of what you don't believe in. Now what is it that you do believe in that is related to mankind and how we became what we are today? I'm curious:).
posted by
b2008
on January 2, 2008 at 5:17 PM
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b2008 - of course they are fake
A good article on these things can be found HERE
Think about the setting in Santiago. A predominantly catholic country, a religion that holds the Virgin Mary in high reverence. On the Asian subcontinent however, where they are not catholics, their Buddha statues weep milk from the eyes. There are countless scams like this, from the "exact amount needed" where somone in desperate straights prays for the exact amount of money they need and mysteriously it appears, to stigmata (another catholic favorite) to faith healing, to speaking in tongues. All of them provide sketchy evidence that focuses not on their legitimacy but on something that diverts the attention of skeptics. In the case you provide an example for; the diversion is the composition of the blood. So what if it is human? There are 6.5 billion humans on this planet and the statue is only 6 inches tall, it could easily be filled without loss of life.
Getting back to the medical miracle example you used earlier; At least 5 times here on Blogit (maybe more), I have had that same story related to me. From California twice, Chicago once, Florida once and one of the southern states once. All of the doctors in all of the stories, which are too similar to be a coincidence, broke doctor/client priviledge to show the x-rays to third parties. All of the examples happened to someone else, all were relayed to me by persons that believe such things. That final point is the key, no credible, emotionally unattached party has ever been able to corroborate any of these stories. It is merely the desire for these things to be true by those not willing to (or unable to) apply the proper amount of critical scrutiny, that proliferate them.
posted by
gomedome
on January 1, 2008 at 10:34 PM
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Re: b2008 - There is no "jusytifying" or explaning something such as this.
Yeah, your're right because I didn't see anything with my own eyes. It was just told to me by a nurse and I'm sure it was exaggerated some. But what about this:
 | Porcelain statue weeping human blood "A six-inch-high porcelain statue began weeping tears of blood. The liquid staining the image is genuinely blood, and human at that. The Santiago coroner's office pronounced the substance is type O-4 human blood. The statue weeps regularly, particularly in the presence of children."
( Source: The Guardian, UK, 4 December 1992 ) |
http://www.cdk.si/grz/relig_ic_e.htm - this is the website and they have another story about the Virgin Mary in Zeitun. Have you heard either of these? I heard about the weeping statute years ago. These stories have been witnessed by millions. I used to be very interested in miracles many years ago before I had a computer and would hear all kinds of things. That's why I looked up the weeping stature. Take a look at some of them. I would like to know if they are fake.
I know there are things people can do with slight of hand and all that stuff like magicians can do, but some things need more of an explanation to me. Thanks again.
posted by
b2008
on January 1, 2008 at 8:59 PM
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b2008 - There is no "jusytifying" or explaning something such as this.
I would venture that it is simply bullshit, a version of a story I have heard countless times. Excuse me for such a harsh assessment but I did mention evidence that was anecdotal in nature:
"It makes me think of a lady one of my nurses told me about when I was in the hospital." ... in most versions of this story, the recipient of the divine intervention is a non believing SOB whom upon being mysteriously healed becomes a believing saint loved by all but I have heard it told many ways. The tip off that it is bullshit is that the doctors always find themselves breaking doctor/patient priviledge to show X-rays to third parties. As with all urban legend stories, there may have been a true story that fostered it but just try finding the doctors, hospital or the patient involved.
posted by
gomedome
on January 1, 2008 at 7:52 PM
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Re: b2008 - Re: "so-called miracles" - that's not quite what I am saying
I understand what you're saying. It makes me think of a lady one of my nurses told me about when I was in the hospital. She said the doctor's had called in her priest to give her last rites and all her family was there to be with her at the time of parting. The nurse said her entire family was around her bed and all held hands and lowered their heads in prayer as the priest annointed her and said whatever they say. I'm not catholic so I don't know the procedures and the nurse didn't either. The lady was very well known in the hospital (Presbyterian in Charlotte) and everybody loved her because she was so sweet.
Anyway, they all prayed in silence and waited for her to take her last breath and she opened her eyes about two hours later they said and actually got up to go to the bathroom but realized she couldn't move because of all the tubing and hookups on her. Everyone was amazed and the nurse layed her back down and told her she had one of those things they stick in you to urinate (can't remember what it's called). She stayed in bed and started talking jovially with everyone and wondered why they were all there with her priest. They didn't say anything and the doctor came in and checked her and told everyone to step out of the room. He called for an x-ray, a cardiogram, and whatever other test he wanted to check the results. He came out much later and told the family she could go home.
Of course everybody was aghast and didn't even know what questions to ask, said the nurse, but the doctor explained that it was a miracle and that her heart was clear, her lungs and every other organ was in excellent condition, and the diagnosis of cancer had been incorrect because nothing showed up on the x-rays that showed up the whole time she had been in the hospital. He even showed the family her previous x-rays and the one he took recently and the nurse agreed there was a difference of night and day between the day. They all considered that a miracle because none of the doctors or nurses had any other explanation. It was the talk of the hospital last year because it was during the Christmas holiday season.
It makes me wonder if she is still living today and what happened. What would you call that? To me, it just reinforced my beliefs. But to those who don't believe in God, how do you justify something like that? Is there a reasonable explanation? Please advise. Thank you.
posted by
b2008
on January 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM
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b2008 - Re: "so-called miracles" - that's not quite what I am saying
When a circumstance is deemed a miracle simply because it has a favorable outcome and defies the odds, it is fair to refer to it as a; "so-called miracle". I don't offer any conclusions as to cause (except in a broad sense). The will to survive is inherent in all living things, positive thinking intensifies this will. It matters not how but only if a person is able to bring themselves to recovery. What I am suggesting is that a great number of lies of omission, unstated implications and a host of other half truths are utilized to give a certain unsupportable impression. In that a divine entity intervenes on behalf of randomly selected people to reverse otherwise terminal illnesses.
When it is considered that with all of our modern day medical record keeping, the medical profession is not able to substantiate any of the claims of miracle healings to any significant degree, we end up with at least a conclusion of widespread exaggeration.
Utilizing the power of positive thinking is the only way to live. Realistic expectations coupled with the will to impose favorable outcomes is the only mentality I am aware of that allows an individual to get the most out of life.
posted by
gomedome
on January 1, 2008 at 4:51 PM
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Gomedome
Off the subject - how do I put my old blogs together in one file so I can clean out and start anew? Thanks.
posted by
b2008
on January 1, 2008 at 2:53 PM
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Gomedome,
I've always believed in positive thinking can make for positive results because I feel the mind can do so much more than man will ever know. I haven't read anything about mind healing but I'm sure it can happen just from the fact that we go through most of our lives not using a 1/4 of our brain power. I would very much like to know what powers we really have at our disposal if we knew how to get in touch with the parts of our brain that we never use. That's why I want to read Deepak Chopra's "Mind and Body" to see what the connection is to both. Have you any knowledge of the connection and how to apply it?
So in essence, are you saying those "so-called miracles" could very well have been mind controlled healings in other words?
posted by
b2008
on January 1, 2008 at 2:09 PM
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b2008 - Yep, all humans see the light and drift into a blissful state when
their physical brains are being subjected to hypoxia (loss of oxygen).
The descriptions all being similar indicates overwhelmingly two constants amongst the experiences. The subjects are reacting in much the same way to similar stimuli and the constructs of social conditioning (prior knowledge) influence the relaying of these experiences to make them even more similar.
As for medical miracles; a strong argument can be made for the entire notion being a product of social conditioning. I've often said that religious belief for some people is the power of positive thinking in a different package. There is no more important aspect to physical healing than the will of the subject re-enforced by positive thinking. The most glaring failing point to the notion of medical miracles being divine in origin is that; while there are inexplicable medical reversals that do in fact happen, they do not happen with near the frequency we are led to believe and when they do happen, they are completely random and indiscriminate. You will find if you explore this subject more that most evidence is anecdotal in nature. It is also a notion that relies very heavily on unstated implications, such as neglecting to mention that there is nothing to indicate that believers experience more medical miracles collectively than non believers.
posted by
gomedome
on January 1, 2008 at 1:51 PM
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Gomedome
I've never believed in anything after death (heaven or hell) because no one has ever come back to tell their experience. I loved the idea of the movies versions, especially
Ghost, but I knew it was a movie and didn't give much credence to it really being that way. I really don't know how anyone can write on death with any knowledge firsthand. But I do believe in other fantastic events, like miracles, for instance. Some have been proven to the extent that something transpired that was extraordinary. And those who have died and were restored to life by doctors, they have tales of being in the after life that would coincide with astral projection or the astral worlds now that I'm familiar with the concept. But even that can not be proven. And I say this specifically because no one has ever come back from death with a
hellish experience that has been documented. The experiences have always been similar and always something beautiful.
posted by
b2008
on January 1, 2008 at 6:58 AM
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gomedome
Happy New Year 2008 to you.
posted by
richinstore
on December 31, 2007 at 8:56 PM
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strat - you hit the point right on - we don't know what is in store for us
when we die, so anythng is possible.
I figure I'm a free agent as far as afterlife constructs go. Acknowledging that we cannot possibly know anything for certain of the afterlife, if the fabrication is unworkable or mandates conversion to a certain religion, it is meaningless to me. Any proposal that does not accomodate the entirety of humanity of all time and of all beliefs, is meaningless to me as well. No one is going to tell me that the denominational barriers and religious constructs that mankind has so foolishly burdened our lives with, mean squat after we are dead.
posted by
gomedome
on December 31, 2007 at 10:54 AM
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bpitter2007 - Happy New Year to you as well
posted by
gomedome
on December 31, 2007 at 10:43 AM
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I was kind of hoping to hit the mother of all parties
once I hit the afterlife...
Seriously, I would suppose that as an agnostic, one would basically be allowing the idea of "anything is possible" rather than some two-destination, either/or dogma choice. And the endless possibilities are far more palatable than either listening to all that infernal harp music or being prodded in the backside with pitchforks.
posted by
strat
on December 31, 2007 at 8:03 AM
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HAPPY NEW YEAR GOMEDOME!
And all the best in your new year:)
posted by
b2008
on December 31, 2007 at 7:45 AM
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thoughtfulness - I must have missed that part in religious classes
Is that part of Christian dogma? Are you saying that everyone who died prior to Jesus dying on the cross went to hell? . . . and that he went into hell (with a set of keys) and gave them a choice to become Christians or stay there? That's not a choice, that's blackmail. I'm sorry but this falls into the contrived answers category I mention in this post.
posted by
gomedome
on December 30, 2007 at 11:45 PM
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Heaven and Hell
It has always been my understanding of Jesus, that his mission was to destroy the works of the devil-sin and death. So, he died to retain the keys to hell so he could walk in and free the prisoners(those who died without the law or baptism or whatever) and then preach to the captives allowing them an opportunity to believe. Just my understanding of all those who didn't get a chance, except for Hitler and the likes. Enjoy reading your views on these important issues.
posted by
thoughtfulness
on December 30, 2007 at 11:30 PM
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Xeno-x - the refusal to discard these constructs is really what compells
people to contrive explanations to reconcile the inconsistencies.
I think we have heard every possible concocted explanation while here on Blogit. From "proof" of natives in the new world having dreams of Jesus to every person being given the choice to convert to certain religion (by God) upon their deaths.
posted by
gomedome
on December 30, 2007 at 5:19 PM
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gomedome,
you always make good sense and I like that. I'm going to keep searching to see if they might have a group experience documented somewhere. I'll let you know. Thanks again.
posted by
b2008
on December 30, 2007 at 4:56 PM
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bpitter2007 - no I do not think it can realy be done
I have seen many accounts such as the one at the link you provide. It is always an individual describing their unverifiable experience, never a group experiencing the same thing or meeting somewhere in the Astral World. I don't doubt the experience, what I doubt is the explanation of the experience.
posted by
gomedome
on December 30, 2007 at 4:41 PM
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Check out this link.
http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/FAQ_updated.html#taking
Do you think it can really be done?
posted by
b2008
on December 30, 2007 at 4:30 PM
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Dante did a good job of constructing a pretty elaborate afterlife
and that was the last word.
it's like much belief -- people have to believe or else their lives take on little if any meaning -- because their lives depend so much upon such belief, they refuse to discard it.
posted by
Xeno-x
on December 30, 2007 at 4:11 PM
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I was reading a little more on the Astral World...
...and it seems to make sense insofar as to be saved, you have to be reborn. So what you said about Hitler makes good sense to me. It makes more sense than anything else I've read so far. And until I can find more information that would give me a more acceptable consensus, I'm pleased in that belief. It's certainly better than the heaven and hell constructs.
posted by
b2008
on December 30, 2007 at 4:04 PM
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I was reading a little more on the Astral World...
...and
posted by
b2008
on December 30, 2007 at 4:01 PM
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