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bpitter,gomedome, you're playing in the fields
of forensic linguistic anthroplogy.
Fascinating stuff! Even an oral tradition can be traced back to its deeper roots through the forensic analysis of the language itself: track the language, track the tale.
Hierarchy is the way humans tend to think, once they get organized in forms of civilization beyond the tribal. The early pantheons were imagined after the model of human behaviors, based on assumptions made by looking at the dynamics between the apex conquering empire-builders and the foundation farmers and craftsmen. Models of authority echo in all places in human life where some sort of power-flow system had to be developed--such as family structure, and industrial/commerce 'company' structure. Naturally, the people who told the stories drew on the model of power and authority they knew, and felt right with, when they considered the humans as the foundation of the apex gods.
If you track back most of the languages and story or myth traditions of Europe, the near-east from the Mediterranean to India, you will eventually find the core of language and spiritual/religious culture among the roots of Mithraism, the tradition out of which Zoroaster arose. In fact, that was the earliest source of the notion of a single God of Light vs an evil but lesser force of darkness, and the idea that Man's role in relation to God is to be a warrior for the Light, and that one of the primary ways to be that is to love your neighbor as yourself... Sound familiar? The story of Zoroaster is interesting, too: born of a virgin... received his revelation and call to ministry while standing in a river of pure flowing water... Water and fire being the sacramental devices of Mithra...
(If you were a foundation individual who lived in a land where that was the deep-lying core of mystical belief, and you had a savior to promote, what stories would you use to impress the people listening to you? How would you convince them that this man was someone more than a little special? Apex sorts could always use force to jam their truths down the throats of everyone, but foundation folk have to rely on things like attention, feeling and belief. )
As to violence between humans-- Only look at everything that has been observed over the past 50 years of chimpanzees, gorillas and orangs, and go even deeper down into the family tree of apes and monkeys, and realize that we are primates behaving like primates.
Religion, political ideology, hair and eye color--are all excuses for behaving like apes.
Thanks, both of you, for this stimulating conversation!
posted by
Ciel
on December 28, 2007 at 11:55 AM
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OK!!
posted by
b2008
on December 27, 2007 at 3:38 PM
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bpitter2007 - Re: Her name is Star Fuentes...
I see a post in this. It will take me awhile to organize it.
posted by
gomedome
on December 27, 2007 at 3:22 PM
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Her name is Star Fuentes...
...and she wrote a blog on the Astral World or Planes. Please give me your opinion if you don't mind! Thank you again.
posted by
b2008
on December 27, 2007 at 1:54 PM
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gomedone
Thanks. From all my readings so far, it seems to be the "only" problem affecting world peace. I read some on Hinduism and they believe in many gods, so does the Nordic beliefs. This is so interesting to me, I am truly amazed. I read about the Astral Plaines, what do you think about that? I think it's marvelous:)
posted by
b2008
on December 27, 2007 at 1:50 PM
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bpitter2007 - absolutely, I think that religion is the basis for most of
the problems facing our species.
I would go as far as to say that most people support this notion but with one glaring caveat. It is everyone else's religion except theirs that are causing the world's problems.
The root of the problems can be traced to two inherent aspects of organized religion. Denominational barriers form an entrenchment of non co-operation amongst different religious groups and religion itself has traditionally focused primarily on preparation for the afterlife. When it is considered that the very things we need at this stage in history are co-operation amongst different cultures and a focus on the here and now, it becomes a fair statement to say that most of the world's problems are "religion-based".
posted by
gomedome
on December 27, 2007 at 1:43 PM
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Do you believe ...
... that most of the world's problems are "religion-based"? And why? And do you feel that man will ever get over their hatred for other men under the name of "religion"?
posted by
b2008
on December 27, 2007 at 6:08 AM
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Wow.
We must have been typing at the same time. You've already answered my question. I have a lot to look up for sure. Wow, I'm truly amazed. Thanks again.
posted by
b2008
on December 26, 2007 at 6:39 PM
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Another thing!
Is it possible that a Greek God could be the God of the Bible do you think? It seems to me that Gods at that time had the same powers to create whatever they wanted. From my readings, the Greek Gods created horses and mares and during the process, they threw away many of the other animals we have today because they didn't like them (donkeys, etc.). What do you think?
posted by
b2008
on December 26, 2007 at 6:37 PM
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bpitter2007 - from my perspective all gods are mythical; from Zeus to Odin
to Awonwinlona, to Jesus Christ and Mohammad.
Once an individual becomes conversant with ancient mythology, the parrallels in all of the stories becomes apparent. If you are looking to learn more about these things, a possible path could be from the Greek gods, through the Norse gods, visiting the Egyptian gods, to native sprituality, to Hinduism, then with stops at Celtic beliefs and the oral traditions of all aboriginal peoples worldwide. Be forewarned however, a new perspective on religious constructs cannot help but be developed. The similarities between all of these mythologies and what are considered legitimate modern day religious beliefs, are that astoundingly obvious.
posted by
gomedome
on December 26, 2007 at 6:29 PM
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Wow...Thanks gomedome!
I just love reading the escapades of the Greek gods because they did some spectacular stuff (good and extremely bad) and loved humans. What other mythical gods are there besides the Greek gods?
posted by
b2008
on December 26, 2007 at 5:54 PM
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bpitter2007 - typical of all ancient mythologies (including the bible),
Greek mythology was chronicled from a longstanding oral tradition.
We have physical evidence of these stories being put to print that dates back to 800-900BC but to pinpoint the origins, specifically how long they existed prior to this chronicle, is virtually impossible to determine.
posted by
gomedome
on December 26, 2007 at 3:44 PM
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Thank you gomedome...
...for your insight. I believe you are right on point and appreciate your comments. I'm learning something every day and I like learning.
I find it interesting and comical to read about the Greek Gods though. They were almost like children. I'm reading about Zeus now, the father of them all. Do you happen to know how far back Greek mythology goes? That's what I've been trying to find out.
posted by
b2008
on December 26, 2007 at 3:21 PM
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bpitter2007- where the bible does not reference Greek mythology directly.
. . . . primarily because we are reading the perspectives of a different culture. . . it has been argued and with some merit, that the hierarchal structure of supreme omnipotent being with subordinate beings (angels etc.) who had supernatural abilities, is very similar to Greek mythology (and other mythologies). A great number of other similarities exist as well. An example would be the overthrow of Cronus by Hades, Zeus and Poseidon versus the war in heaven. Where we see more influences in biblical mythologies from such authors as Zarathrustra, there is no doubt that all such stories found within the limited geographical region of the bible's authors influenced their writings.
As for your second comment: Thank you for the links.
I don't however feel that "contrast" is the appropriate word. All of the links seem to be legitimate websites attempting to chronicle scientific discovery without agenda, which actually support what I am saying in this post. The fact that there seems to be no "absolute" consensus is actually a good thing. Truth as revealed to us by the scientific process must be able to withstand the scrutiny, criticism and revision of others to in fact be called truth. When the knowledge is incomplete (and may never be complete) it would no longer be scientific methodology if everyone simply agreed . . . . it would instead be faith.
posted by
gomedome
on December 26, 2007 at 1:15 PM
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FYI
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4416757.stm
http://www.marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2006/102/mars-humanoid-skull.htm
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0208/feature1/
Articles in contrast to the one you submitted. There seems to be no "absolute" consensus one way or the other.
posted by
b2008
on December 26, 2007 at 11:00 AM
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Your right!
I don't believe the earth is only 6,000 years old myself, but I do find it interesting that there's no lineage of man, per se, that goes back to the beginning of time, whenever that's supposed to be. And the Bible gives no credence to Greek Mythology at all, and I also believe in the Greek Gods. So, to me, the Bible is not all-inclusive to the beginning of time. Plus, it indicates in Genesis that the earth was void, and it did not say the earth was
not even there. Scientifically, it's even hard to discern the age of some of the fossils they've discovered of man. So, to me, the beginning is still a question and will remain so until my research or someone can prove otherwise.
posted by
b2008
on December 26, 2007 at 9:44 AM
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Yep--
what you said...
posted by
Ciel
on December 26, 2007 at 1:57 AM
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