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saul_relative - I'm assuming that you are commenting here about the
previous post pertaining to infamous atheists.
Another part that is never mentioned is that they all had black hair. The color of their hair being just as relevent to why they were ruthless killers as their so called atheism.
posted by
gomedome
on December 18, 2007 at 10:29 PM
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Choose your favorite whipping boy well, eh, gomedome? Great post. And
thought-provoking. The reprehensibleness of these people's actions necessitate that they have to be godless (in a Christian's eyes). But, then, who masterminded the Crusades, the Inquisitions, most Jewish pogroms, and had a great hand in the extermination and genocidal decimation of many of the indigenous tribes of the Americas? And those are just atrocities committed by those who follow the Christian god...
posted by
saul_relative
on December 18, 2007 at 9:34 AM
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Re: FineYoungSinger - this is admittedly where it becomes confusing but we are
I see where you're coming from now--sorry for the confusion. And it appears that we are overall in agreement on this topic. (Why does this not surprise me?) I can tell because of this statement: " In most cases it has been implied, if not outright stated, that I am incomplete until I accept their God."
I thought Salvation belonged to God Alone---it's written in Revelation, a favorite book of the Bible bangers. Damnation is not ours to dole out so smugly as this. To those that believe God "completes" us: Is it not written that he created us in his own image? We are therefore complete as we are.
Faith in God is not some magic wand that you wave and suddenly all your questions are answered, and your life is complete. It just doesn't work that way, and to imply or even outright say this is false. Having faith in God is developing a relationship with Him, which enriches you, just like any other relationship enriches you, and this relationship is entirely up to you to have, and it's no one's business if you choose not to initiate it.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on December 18, 2007 at 7:03 AM
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Oddy - I will give you that - you are "trying"
But please don't attempt to tell me that you have ever converted anyone, even in jest. It simply isn't possible by the way you present yourself to those who do not believe as you do. Now, if you told me that you had suffered a few bullet wounds or had a few bones broken in your efforts to convert people, . . . that I would believe.
posted by
gomedome
on December 18, 2007 at 6:25 AM
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Well, ya gotta point there, but it's not like we're not trying!
The problem is that nearly every dang time we make friends with the boogers and take them in, they turn into believers! Hardest little buggers to keep I've ever seen!
posted by
Oddy
on December 17, 2007 at 11:05 PM
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FineYoungSinger - this is admittedly where it becomes confusing but we are
speaking of both what I believe and what believers believe.
They are inextricably linked in that they are acting on behalf of a God they believe in while trying to envelop me in those beliefs. The very fact that I do not believe their God exists has me viewing their actions as their own responsibility and representative of their religion. It is not a mythical being that is making them act this way, it is the conditioning of their respective religious communities and their own individual shortcomings. Consider not only why people try to convert non believers but how they go about it. In most cases it has been implied, if not outright stated, that I am incomplete until I accept their God. Part of the the resistence to this message is the observation of what little it has done for them.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 10:58 PM
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Re: Re: Re: ZenMom
loaded question, as you well know bpitter........
"This is my religion. There are no complicated philosophies, no elaborate temples..................My heart and my mind are my temple, my philosophy is kindness."
Hope that answers your question. Peace!
zen
posted by
ZenMom
on December 17, 2007 at 7:13 PM
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ZenMom - that can happen around here
That freedom of speech thingy is a concept beyond some people.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 6:38 PM
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ginnieb - I can sympathize with that feeling - there have been days when I
have experienced the same.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 6:34 PM
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Re: Re: ZenMom
How do you feel about religion now may I ask? Just curious!
posted by
b2008
on December 17, 2007 at 4:01 PM
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Re: ZenMom - first off - a belated welcome to Blogit
Gome (ok if i call u that?)
i was a member of this site a few years back but, i was rather outspoken re: my opinions about religion being ridiculous........so I sought "higher ground".
ZEN
posted by
ZenMom
on December 17, 2007 at 3:55 PM
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Nice to find this blog gome....
..I've been feeling like a misfit at blogit these days...yer either with me or you're with the enemy kind of place.
posted by
ginnieb
on December 17, 2007 at 2:56 PM
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Re: FineYoungSinger - I knew this was inevitable
Are we talking about "believers" here, or are we talking about you? I thought we were talking about "believers". Does the believer have a right to define the God in which He believes? No--God is not a matter of opinion. It's WHY believers are so screwed up, gome.
Now, whether or not YOU, gomedome, choose to accept God, choose to have faith, of course IS a matter of your choice, your opinion. Of course this is your entitlement; as I stated in a previous comment in this very string that it's not up to me to force someone to change their thinking. That's completely up to you.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on December 17, 2007 at 2:12 PM
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thoughtfulness - right on, tact is the art of making a point without making
and enemy.
I guess the question would then be; how tactful is to leave comments on the posts of a non believer speaking of the existence of God in absolutes? I don't mind it, I cannot say that it is something that bothers me, other than the reality that I would never consider going to a believer's blog and speaking affirmatively that there is no God.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 2:04 PM
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Thoughfulness
How true also.
posted by
b2008
on December 17, 2007 at 1:53 PM
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FineYoungSinger
How true.
posted by
b2008
on December 17, 2007 at 1:52 PM
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Religious things and such
Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy. And even if you don't believe in God, he believes in you.
posted by
thoughtfulness
on December 17, 2007 at 1:46 PM
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FineYoungSinger - I knew this was inevitable
The existence of God is a matter of opinion and man has created all versions of God. I can be assertive with my opinion as to the existence of God as well. (hey, it's my blog)
You did say one thing that is irrefutable, I have met a number of screwed up believers in my life. Both on this site and in real life.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 1:36 PM
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eyeshaveears470 - thanx for stopping in and the kind words
That's the ticket right here: "Equality is the key and love is of an equal nature."
Where the notion of humans loving all of mankind may be a lofty and unattainable ideal when considering our limitations, setting the sites a little lower makes a great deal of sense. To extend a consideration of the equality of all human beings becomes that attainable lower value. We do not have to respect the beliefs of others, if the truth be known, many beliefs; both religious and otherwise, are not worthy of respect. We need only extend an equal courtesy to others for their right to believe as they do.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 1:30 PM
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Wow. You have been hit by some really confused believers over the years.
Let's work backwards:
Humans are not to modify the behaviors of others. They can witness, they can inspire, but a person cannot break the will of another (which is required to modify the behavior of others) and call himself/herself a believer in the one-true God.
Just because a person chooses to not believe God exists does not mean He therefore doesn't exist. God is not a matter of opinion. God IS. Just as you are. Just as the air is. Therefore the conclusions in your rebuttal comments made are still the same: the believer creating a god is creating and worshipping an idol.
The real, one-true God DOES exist, and He is vastly different from humans, as different as a human is from a book, a table or a spatula. A human creating God is as ridiculous as a book writing a human. It's not the proper order of things.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on December 17, 2007 at 1:21 PM
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Gome
I am a believer, though I can see the point you are making and can agree with such points. For instance I do have many friends from different cultures and beliefs, some are religous whereas others are not, it sure makes interesting conversations and debates at times 
. Also when I was younger and growing up in the church, I did come across people who would preach one thing, yet in the next breath they would turn around and judge another for something, also found that hypocrisy existed on a wider scale. For me I guess, it's not so much about religion or beliefs, but respect, to have respect for each others personal views and beliefs, be them of religious foundation or not. Equality is the key and love is of an equal nature. Also I guess at the end of the day, we are all human but none of us are perfect. Very interesting and worthy post I found it. Take care.
Bless
posted by
UncharteredSoul
on December 17, 2007 at 1:09 PM
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FineYoungSinger - you make a good point, people's behaviour is only an
indication of their human shortcomings.
But your contention relies on the existence of a perfect loving God. From the perspective of someone who believes that all forms of God were created by man, the absolute of perfection that you would like to advance as a subtle difference between the entity and the behaviour of those who worship him, becomes redundant. He doesn't exist, therefore how can his behaviour and that of his worshippers be separated? In an attempt to make this point it also ignores the single most compelling motivation of those who act this way, which is to modify the behaviour of others.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 12:05 PM
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sam444 - you are a Quaker? - can you get me a good deal on some oats?
Okay, my sense of humor needs a bit of work but I can tell by your overall demeanor that you are someone who practices what they preach. Which of course makes you a rarity.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 11:48 AM
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ZenMom - first off - a belated welcome to Blogit
My world is one of being surrounded by religious loonies. I married into a family of right wing fundies, fortunately me my wife sees past their extremism but it has caused a few probelms over the years. Currently however, they are all not speaking to me, a quit while I'm ahead scenario if I ever saw one. I count a number of religious adherants amongst my friends, most notably a Baptist minister. Mind you, I did have to lay the law down with him a few years ago.
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 11:45 AM
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richinstore -
posted by
gomedome
on December 17, 2007 at 11:41 AM
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FineYoungSinger!
How right you are. But remember, we are "imperfect" so God knows we are going to make mistakes. Even men of the Cloth make mistakes. It's hard trying to be a perfect person when you have so many imperfections. And as hard as we try, we only make those who do not believe, believe more that God does not exist because no human man can act in the way God wishes us to. But those of us who know that, like you said, can get the joy of knowing they are at least trying to be the best they can be and God is not holding our imperfections against us. God is a loving God and a forgiving God.
posted by
b2008
on December 17, 2007 at 11:12 AM
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Humans are absolutely incapable of loving one another as God does.
This, sadly, is a reality for everyone, including me. I can try, and work hard to live to my full human potential; but I fall short because I am too involved in myself, in the world, and forget my spirit far too often, contributing to the doubts and contradictions so clearly visible in the world today when it comes to matters of the spirit.
You've made some very good points here, and I can't see any evidence of God's love as I know it in the examples you've cited. This leads me to believe that those who think and act in the ways you've listed here do not truly believe in God, but in a god of their own making--an idol.
I've also noticed that you've used the behavior of people as evidence of God's love---I have to question this, because people screw it all up: "The love of the people who claim to believe in God is a love for all who believe as they do."
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on December 17, 2007 at 11:02 AM
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Jesus said, 'You are My friends, if you do what I command you. John 15:14 and in His prayer in John 17:21 'that they may all be one; even Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they may be one, just as We are one;' (NAS); I am a Quaker, Jesus is not, therfore I could never say you have to worship my way only. Being a Quaker is my chosen way to praise to my Lord. We are not following the teachings of Christ when we say anything other than what He has said>>> therefore I call you friend so that we may all be one!!!!!!!!!!!sam
posted by
sam444
on December 17, 2007 at 8:38 AM
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You've "outed" me
Ok...I'll admit to it. I have one friend, and we don't talk religion/god/etc. She knows I am a non-believer. I am quite certain everyone else that used to be in our little "clique" of friends thinks I'm a nutcase. Luckily, there is my husband, whom shares my belief (or lack of it). I seem to lose respect for anyone who actually BELIEVES that if we are "good", we go UP to that HAPPY place where we are REUNITED with all the people that irritated us while we were on earth. LOL
zen
posted by
ZenMom
on December 17, 2007 at 7:47 AM
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gomedome
posted by
richinstore
on December 17, 2007 at 7:10 AM
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