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Chyrlann
That was a very interesting conversation I think we had here, although I am not sure how much I was a part of it all. I am glad you understand me better though. Keep an eye out of the post I just promised bpitter I would repost for her. I think you might get something out of it as well.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 10, 2007 at 3:53 PM
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bpitter
And if I present any proof to you are you going to claim that you will address it with a more open mind that I look at your 'proof'? Honestly, I would bet your mind is much more set than mine is. I am open to new possibilities, if they make sense. All the proof you presented is stuff I have looked at in the past and found it to be as flawed as it gets.
I have no problem with disagreeing, but please do not tell me something is 'proof' or 'facts' or 'known' when it is no such thing.
As for the 'why' and such of my beliefs. as far as I can figure I really have always been an atheist. I just did not realize it until a good friends of mine got 'born again' and started to try and convert. I had gone to church before and I never thought much of it, never getting anything out of it. I went with my friend to various things and it really hit me as to how foolish it all was. As a child I guess I believed in God the same way one believes in Santa and I got nothing out of it at all. At least with Santa you get presents.
I tell you what, I am gonna hunt down an old post that I repost every so often about why I am an atheist and what I get out of it. Maybe that will help you understand me better.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 10, 2007 at 3:51 PM
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Re: kOOKA - MY PROOF
Kooka FORGET ANY PROOF I might have submitted to you. Your mind is so set on disproving anything I submit that I see it as fruitless. I have no qualms whatsoever in what you believe. That's your choice. And what I believe is my choice. So let's respectfully agree to disagree! I am not the one to push anything on anybody who doesn't have a desire to see past their own perceptions.
It just interest me how or when you began to feel the way you do? It's just my curiosity and nothing more. Being an Atheist comes from your desire to understand life in a way that suits you. Just as being religious is a that suits me. I can tell you from "jump street" when and how I began to feel that way. Can you tell me when and how you began to feel like an Atheist?
My aim is to understand, not to reject or be harsh. I prefer to love my fellow man whether he loves me or not. It makes me feel so much better. It takes too much energy to hate, and I'm a grandmother. I don't have time for negativity towards others. I want to give as much love as I can in the years I have left.
Bless you, Kooka, and please don't take that as a slight. I truly mean it.
babs
posted by
b2008
on December 10, 2007 at 10:44 AM
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In conclusion; I respect your beliefs. If you are living a full and happy
life and believe that is your purpose in life (if you believe there is a purpose for life), I am sincerely happy for you. I mean that with the utmost of respect. And I do understand your post. If anyone said they were sorry for my beliefs and my beliefs afforded me a full and happy life, I would also question such a comment statement.
Thanks for the chat! Have a good evening.
posted by
roadscross
on December 7, 2007 at 7:49 PM
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I just finished reading all the comments; hmmmmm, I know I'm successfully
functioning, I have never been diagnosed with schizophrenia or any other mental disorder, I have great relationships, have accomplished many things in life, raised two boys as a single parent, run a successful business and am known as a rather joy-filled, happy person (I'm trying to deduce another logical answer for this 'imaginary friend' of mine who has been comforting me, talking with me, guiding me, intervening in my life (and the lives of all I know and who trust my 'truth') and showing me the miraculous since I was five years old...is a figment of my dysfunctional mind? An aberration, a spirit of the....your belief is no afterlife....so he's not a spirit. I'm sorry, I can't come up with any other explanation. His name is Yashua...I used to call him Achewa (like a sneeze) when I was a kid....now you've got me stumped because I can't figure out any logical explanation for this beautiful man with multi-colored hair and striking blue eyes whose been hanging out with me for forty-three years!
posted by
roadscross
on December 7, 2007 at 7:43 PM
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I'm sorry for my long-winded comment, I had just one more thing;
if you do ask sincerely and receive proof, you will not grow wings and adorn a halo, nor will you hear a choir sing in unison. Not one word of my comment has anything to do with religion, but you will begin experiencing supernatural phenomenon beyond your wildest dreams! Do you know beyond absolute certainty that the world as you perceive it really exists or could it possibly be just a preconcieved notion conjured from your own imagination?
posted by
roadscross
on December 7, 2007 at 7:23 PM
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Please don't feel pity for those who have a belief you do not understand;
And I mean that statement with the utmost of respect, sir. Quoted; "I feel sorry for those like you who are never going to be able to enjoy life to the fullest and find the deeper greatness in life because you put all your faith in the concept of God"
Anyone knowing and truly understanding the messages Christ taught (& is still teaching), have made a choice of free will to receive. Those who have no understanding, have chosen by free will not to receive understanding. A heart must be opened to understanding, otherwise your comment is a cart before the horse. A heart closed cannot see within.
Many have opened their hearts at desperate times with no preconceived concept of God; under life-threatening circumstances, where nothing stands between their last breath and deaths door but a brief moment in time. Desperate moments call for reaching beyond what is visible to the supernatural.
I was never taught religion prior to Christ's intervention following childhood molestation. I did not seek religion following rape, nor did I turn to any religious belief at death's door, but Christ was always present comforting and moving me through each circumstance to enjoy life to the fullest and find the deeper greatness in life. Faith is not found in any concept or belief but in an understanding and a knowing of a comforting presence of intimacy.
If you have faced a desperate moment at death's door and did not cry out beyond the visible for help or relief, I pray you are never faced with the circumstance for an opportunity to do so. I pray you are given the opportunity to cry out prior to such a moment of desperation.
If you need proof, it is simply to ask. Proof will be given when you are sincere within your heart to receive proof. That is the way of this concept of God. All of God's laws are natural laws as well. Looking back through your life, you will need to admit, you have never seen proof of anything until your heart was willing to see it. The visible perceptions (unveiling of the eyes) does not occur until the heart is opened and willing to see.
Yes, I know God exists as well as I know I exist, because of my lifelong, intimate relationship with Christ. Ask for your proof with a sincere heart and you will receive it.
posted by
roadscross
on December 7, 2007 at 7:07 PM
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bpitter, Now to look at your 'proof'
We'll tackle your comment here first, then I'll deal with the article you linked to. Although I must admit you are not really giving me anything close to a challenging with either one.
To begin with, just because they are scientists, does not mean they know everything. In fact if you look at what they more or less each said, they 'believe' there is a God or some force out there because they have no other answers at this time. That is not proof at all. If these scientists are right just because they have their degrees, then why are the scientists who do not believe in God not right as well? Scientists who believe in God prove nothing more than there is a wide verity of faith in all fields.
Also, too look at the really silly logic used for the whole 747 thing, we already know for a proven fact that the building block of life CAN be produced from inorganic compounds through randomness in the same kind of environment that was present at the dawn of life on Earth (Read about it here). A 747 is nothing at all like the building blocks of life and serves a truly poor analogy. You might want to read my blog "THE WORKINGS OF THE UNIVERSE" to better see a lot of what I would use to show the flaws there, such as the odds being effected by the amount of time being considered and so on. If you read the posts one thing I point out is that after so many billions of years, the odds that life will be created in a random manner becomes really low by logic.
Let's move on to your article, which I found to be very poorly conceived on so many levels.
Now the greatest flaws in any such writings is the logic that if you can disprove one thing, in this case evolution, then that proves the only other option they wish to believe in has to be true, in this case creation by God. Even if you could disprove evolution, which you can't, that would not prove God. There could be countless other possibilities instead.
Now they use a lot of the piss poor logic I have seen many times in the past to try and disprove evolution. None of it holds any weight at all. I've already gone over all of it in other posts. It was really easy to show the flaws in that thinking. Check out my post here and read the other posts in that blog for more on the flaws in the anti-evolution thinking. They really cannot disprove evolution at all and are stretching logic and science when they try to.
So right there, their first attempt to 'prove' God fails. They cannot disprove evolution and even if they could, by logic that would not prove God or the Bible.
Then they try to use the ten commandments as proof somehow. One very inaccurate statement they made was "What is the reason mankind has never been able to solve these problems? Why do they only grow worse with the passing of time?" In truth we are fixing the problems and they are not getting worse at all. In fact the simple truth of it all is that we are a society of much higher moral than any in the past. Many seem to want to disagree with this, but that means they have not studied history very well. Also, I have written a few posts on my take on the Ten Commandments and I have shown that the first few are really not needed and the rest are common sense that more of less all societies have made into laws, with or without the Bible to guide them.
Then they try to use Armstrong as a form of proof. Go and ask my father (Xeno_x) about Armstrong and his church. He will tell you about that group I am sure. He was involved with them I think right before I was born and he saw just how messed up their thinking was. And my mother does not have any kind words to say with the church and their beliefs.
Now they finish up with prophecies. That is no proof at all in the least. Not too long ago I wrote this post about prophecies and the foolishness of following them.
Of course the article then keeps making the claim that we are near the end of days with nothing to back them up. In fact the article gets really disturbing at the end in how they seem to be praising the end of the world. To me that says these guys are nut jobs and have serious issues.
That article was 100% unable to prove its point with any form of logic or reasoning at all. It started off with nothing and ended sounding like a real bunch of nonsense being ranted off by a wacko.
Okay, so there is my take on it all. A bit long and I don't have time to really proof read since dinner is almost ready. But hopefully I made my point. Feel free to follow this up with any questions. or points of clarification.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 5:58 PM
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bpitter
You're making it hard to keep track of which comment I am replying to. So this one is to the one your started with "Thank you. That makes me feel a lot better."
Yes, there are some believers here on Blogit who I have a hard time dealing with. Basically they show no respect at all for me or my beliefs and demand I show them respect. One of them keeps saying how he wants us to get along and then goes and out right bashes my beliefs in his next post and finally he openly admitted that he has no intention of showing me any respect at all.
So far it does not seem like you have those problem with respect.
Does anyone want to die? I have no desire at all to die. I know I will and that will be the end of it all. Now I have no desire at all to live for ever either. I plan to make the most of this life, since I am sure as it gets that this life is all we get, so we need to make the most of it. All death is really is an end of it all. You have to make the most of it here and now. the idea of resurrection or any kind of afterlife sounds as depressing as it gets to me. I've yet to hear one single after life concept that is appealing to me. I've written posts about this in the past, so if you have the time you might try to hunt them down, although I think the last one was a few years ago. I might be willing to write some news posts on this if you're interested. But death does not bother me in the least and I really do not worry about it.
I am all for this exchange between us and I hope we can keep it friendly and mutually interesting and enlightening.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 4:44 PM
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Re: Kooka
http://www.thercg.org/books/bacibp.html?cid=g0120&s_kwcid=ContentNetwork|951145021&gclid=CJnjx5iVl5ACFQIqswodv2jh8A
Check out the above link for proof also. And then explain to me how all this can be disproved, please. I'm anxious to know.
babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 2:13 PM
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Re: Re: kooka
I'll be back after 7 because I have to cook:)
See ya!
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 1:31 PM
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Re: kooka
I meant kind!
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 1:27 PM
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kooka
I will await your response. Thank you for being so king.
babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 1:20 PM
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Kooka
Thank you. That makes me feel a lot better. It just seems when you're at odds with some people, they tend to not want to listen to you because they think you are trying to change them. And that is not my purpose.
As much as you believe in being an Atheist, I believe in God. And I'm as curious as anyone can be why you believe the way you do. It just seems to me that if I didn't have any reason for dying, I would never want to die. I can understand then why you wish to live as much as you can because you believe that dying is nothing more. I know from my beliefs that dying is just the last step before resurrection into paradise and peace and happiness for ever and ever. So I look forward to passing on with that glorious aspect of moving into eternity. I just hate to see someone with no aspirations of going further than death. And that's not your fault, that's just the way I feel.
Everything you've said, you honestly believe and vice versa with me. I just want you to understand why I feel the way I do as you have explained to me why you feel the way you do. I've researched God to the fullest extent and I have no question in my mind whatever that he exist. I'm not trying to change you. I just want to show you why I feel the way I do. It's just an exchange of feelings between two people who feeling opposite of one another.
I've always wish I had the opportunity to talk with an Atheist to know more. That's all.
love, babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 1:18 PM
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bpitter
I will address your last comment here later. It is actually fairly easy to show you the flaws there. A lot of that I have already seen and broken apart in the past. But I gotta go pick my son up from school and run a few errands.
And just so you know, my mother is not omnipotent and I have had actual contact with her in the past. God is suppose to be omnipotent and so should be able to hear me at all times, and I have yet to ever have any form of contact with him. That is why I ma sure my mother is real and I doubt that God is. Now if my mother said she were omnipotent and I called for her and she ignored me, I would be a little pissed at her and most likely doubt her abilities to do what she claims.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 1:11 PM
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Tattered_Knight
I am not sure what you think I am taking personal here. I am addressing the comments that are being presented to me.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 1:04 PM
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bpitter
What you actually said was "I'm sorry you don't know Him." I just wrote a whole post based off of our dialogue over this. I did not for one moment think you meant to 'hurt' me with that. I very much understand you meant it as a polite thing to say. In the end however, it really would be like me saying "I am sorry you believe in God" to you. Basically you are saying you are sorry that I have my beliefs that are not your beliefs.
As for the trying times in my life, I have had many, many people to call on. My friends and family have always been there. That is where I put my faith, and so far it has proven to by the right place for me to put that faith. But when I pass on, I am going to guess I will be beyond calling to them. Hopefully I will have said whatever was needed to them before that times comes, since after all most people I have known who have died never got the chance for any form of 'last words'.
Could I believe in something which I could not see even if it's proven to you to be there?
Well if there is proof, that is different. The problem with any for of proof in God is that said proof is not real proof and the form of logic used is always flawed because it can be used to prove any number of false things as well.
I am always interested in knowing. I take great pride in learning all I can.
Just so you know, I have not taken anything you have said here as hurtful. I generally do not get angry and so far you have been very respectful, so I have no problem with you openly asking questions and I will answer them.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 1:02 PM
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Kooka
There's no need to be so cynical. You could call on your mother right now and if she doesn't show up when you call, does that mean she doesn't exist either? We don't live in a world where people and things pop up exactly when we request them. We're not that advanced yet. So in essence, you didn't prove anything to me. See how you can disprove what scientists say.
Does God Exist?
Some Scientists Answer
PHYSICS professor Ulrich J. Becker, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, stated when commenting on the existence of God: "How can I exist without a creator? I am not aware of any compelling answer ever given."
Did this contradict his scientific views? The professor's thought-provoking answer was, "If you discovered how one wheel in the 'clock' turns—you may speculate how the rest move, but you are not entitled to call this scientific and better leave alone the question of who wound up the spring."
Contrary to the opinion of some, many respected men of science do not rule out the idea of there being a God—a Great Mastermind behind the creation of the universe and man.
Consider two more examples on this point. When mathematics professor John E. Fornaess, of Princeton University, was asked for his thoughts on the existence of God, he replied: "I believe that there is a God and that God brings structure to the universe on all levels from elementary particles to living beings to superclusters of galaxies."
Physics professor Henry Margenau, of Yale University, said that he was convinced that the laws of nature were created by God, adding: "God created the universe out of nothing in an act which also brought time into existence." He then noted that in the book The Mystery of Life's Origin, three scientists explain that a Creator is a plausible explanation for life's origin. Supporting this view, astronomer Fred Hoyle has stated that believing the first cell originated by chance is like believing that a tornado ripping through a junkyard full of Boeing 747 airplane parts dismembered and in disarray could produce a 747.
To these answers can be added the words of the Bible writer Paul: "[God's] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship."—Romans 1:20.
 | 
"If you discovered how one wheel in the 'clock' turns—you may speculate how the rest move, but you . . . better leave alone the question of who wound up the spring"
|
Yes, God really does exist! But what is his reason for allowing the world's present sorry state? What is his purpose for the earth? Can we know exactly who the true God is?
If you want to see more, I can give it to you and would like to see you contradict all that I have.
love, babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 12:52 PM
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Kooka Lives
I don't remember ever once saying I felt sorry for you. And if I did I'm sorry. I'm sure it wasn't meant to hurt you. It seems that you might have gone through some trying times in your life not to have anyone you can call on at the end. Most people say something when they're at that point of passing on, and that's mainly "Oh God". Those are primarily the last words of many. However, there are quite a few who say "Oh Shit" instead.
Tell me something, can you believe in something which you cannot see even if it's proven to you to be there? Or, are you just not interested in knowing one way or the other?
I'm just a curious sole and forgive me to caring about you. I never mean to hurt anyone but I do love a challenge when it comes to human behavior. I hope you don't take my questions personally or let them make you angry. That is not my purpose. Understanding of how you feel is what I'm trying to do. That's all.
Love,
babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 12:44 PM
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Kooka
Okay. You should lighten up, you seem to take things so personal. We all get that you are a non-prophet individual.
posted by
Tattered_Knight
on December 7, 2007 at 12:39 PM
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bpitter
No, you cannot prove that God exist. That is the pinnacle of ego and righteousness. Any proof you gave I could turn around and use it to prove any number of untrue things by using the same logic.
You want me to prove God does not exist? Okay, here is my proof.
God, if you are out there I need you to come here now and prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are real...
Guess what just happened? Nothing.
Need more proof?
Seriously, neither of us can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that our beliefs are true.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 12:36 PM
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bpitter
When it is my time to pass on I will call to no one. I do not believe there is anything after this life. I will be at peace and not have any of this nonsense of worry about.
And you are mistaken. Not everyone calls to God when things get bad. That is a myth that has no evidence in the least to back it up. I've been through hard times in my life and I've never gone and asked for God's help.
I made the comment about feeling sorry for you in response to your comment about feeling sorry for me. I feel sorry for you in the same manner you feel sorry for me. For you to say "I'm sorry you don't know him" is like me saying to you "I'm sorry you believe in him". Part of faith and belief is finding what beliefs make you feel the best in life. And I do believe that in both of our cases we would not feel right and not being living our lives to their best if we were to live with the other person's beliefs.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 12:33 PM
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God does not exist!
Can you prove that God does not exist? Because I can prove that He does!
babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 12:26 PM
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Tattered_Knight
I am as qualified to say that God does not exist as you are to say God does exist. That is the true essence of what belief is all about. We can both say what we believe, but in the end neither of us knows for a fact that our beliefs are what is true.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 12:19 PM
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Re: bpitter
And by the way, Kooka lives, please don't feel sorry for me. Don't waste your feelings because there is no need. My life is wonderful and I've experienced more than you can imagine or likely will never experience. I was an entertainer and have been all over the world. Have you enjoyed your life to that extent? I know greatness and great people, all of whom believe there is a greater being other than ourselves.
God loves you.
babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 11:41 AM
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Re: Kooka lives
As you say, if that's what makes you happy, then so be it. As I said before, when it's your time to pass on, who will you call? It seems that everyone, believers or not, seem to call on God when they are desperately trying to grasp at life. I'm just curious to know who or what will come out of your mouth?
I still love you as an individual, just curious, that's all:)
babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 11:37 AM
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KOOKA
Do I believe? Yes. Do I know for sure that God exists? Only in my heart. I do not however feel that anyone is qualified to say that they know for sure that God does not exist.
posted by
Tattered_Knight
on December 7, 2007 at 11:35 AM
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bpitter
I 'know' that there is no God just as well as you 'know' that there is one.
I personally feel sorry for those like you who are never going to be able to enjoy life to the fullest and find the deeper greatness in life because you put all your faith in the concept of God. That is where belief really comes into play. We both have found what we need to believe in so that we can live life they way we need to. I would never be able to enjoy life believing as you do, just as it seems you could never enjoy life believing as I do.
You also should read the comment I just left for FineYoungSinger. it would apply to you as well.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 11:31 AM
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FineYoung
You really don't for a fact that here is a God, your belief is just so strong that is feels as if you know. That is part of the power of belief. At some level belief creates a strange sense of reality.
I wrote a post on that in the past and am thinking of writing one here real soon since it seems to need to be addressed.
Ghosts are very real to people who believe in ghosts.
UFOs are very real to those who believe in UFOs.
Physic powers and fortune telling are very real to people who believe in such things.
And all those people will tell you that whatever it is they believe in is real. Belief is a very powerful thing. Just feeling that something is true does not mean it is.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 7, 2007 at 11:26 AM
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Yes, I know for sure!
And there are plenty more like me. I know God by name and He knows me. Jehovah is with me at all times and whenever I need Him, He's right there to pull me through. I couldn't possibly survive without knowing Him. And I'm sorry you don't know Him. What a lost because He knows you by name. When it's time for you to pass on and you call His name, do you think He'll hear you then?
God loves you and I do, too.
love,
babs
posted by
b2008
on December 7, 2007 at 11:13 AM
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the aspect of openly accepting we do not know
needs a lot of self knowledge and a huge dose of humility! thats where peace begins.
posted by
springonion
on December 6, 2007 at 9:16 PM
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we only "know", that is, understand, what we experience
and how we interpret that experience brings us to our conclusions.
like the blind men and the elephant -- they all experience the same beast, but each, a different part of it.
and, like them, we only "know in part".
finding the true "god" consists of discarding the invalid, like the concept of god many people have today that comes from archaic mythology.
what I have experienced is different from what anyone else has experiences; and yet, I have to say that I have experienced paranormal.
What I can define from that? -- what I can conclude? -- there is something beyond the mundane -- what it is, I don't know.
posted by
Xeno-x
on December 6, 2007 at 6:36 AM
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This is very good, Kooka.
I do, however, disagree on one slight point--which is that I do know that there is a God...What do I know about God? Very, very, very little, because I can't even begin to wrap a thought around what He is. I can, however, say that I know He's out there, because I have a relationship. How do I know it's not a figment of my imagination? Kooka, All I can say is that I know what I know, and have experienced what I experience.
Now, does that fact have anything to do with how I live my life in the here and now? Not a bit. And it shouldn't. And as I understand it, that's the way it's supposed to be. So the fact that you've discovered that a well-lived life is full of love, family, friendship and honesty simply because it's right is a HUGE thing, and you should be commended for it, not beaten up for it.
Very thought provoking post, Kooka, as always.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on December 6, 2007 at 5:28 AM
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SO WHAT DO I KNOW?
Kooka,
I often read your posts but seldom comment, being of a different religious persuasion.
However, this latest post of yours is, in my opinion, one of the best you have ever written! It is full of wisdom and maturity, and all of us could profit from the advice it contains. Thank you for sharing it with us!
Gerald
posted by
GEPRUITT
on December 5, 2007 at 10:55 PM
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