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cpklapper
Nothing you have said here reflects any sign of constructive criticism in the least. Your 'feedback' is clearly nothing more than you deciding that because I am an atheist I must have some agenda to attack believers. That was made clear from you very first comment here.
You seem to feel that this post was me trying to say something negative about believers just because I wanted to, when all I did was post my personal life observations and the conclusions I have come to due to them.
"this post is nothing more than a baseless diatribe fueled by your anger against people who have done nothing to hurt you"
That alone tells me just what it is you believe I was saying in this post. You made a huge generalization there that was nothing more than a poorly conceived sweeping statement. After you open up with such a comment do you think I am going to take anything you say as something of value? Or that I would be so foolish to believe you are trying to be constructive in you comments to me?
You obviously believe that all atheists hate believers and God and such, and are for some reason filled with anger towards all thing religious. When you open up with such obvious prejudices towards me, how do you think I am going to react to anything you say after that?
You are not the first to try these games with me to make me look bad and discredit my ideas without really proving me wrong. If you want to be constructive then you show me where my reasoning is wrong. Do not try to tell me I am acting out in some manner because I hate all believers or some other such nonsense.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 5, 2007 at 12:42 PM
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Re: cpklapper
You obviously have a need to assume that when I give you some honest feedback that I have some sort of agenda or even want or see the benefit of debating your "ideas". If you care to actually read what we have written in this thread, you might benefit from the constructive criticism I have offered with respect to your persuasive writing skills or lack thereof. If not, I can only suggest that you not ask for honest feedback.
posted by
cpklapper
on December 5, 2007 at 10:35 AM
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cpklapper
I find it very revealing that you come here and right away make it clear that you believe this is some attempt by me to attack believers. I made an observation from my own life and put it here to see if other's have seen a similar pattern. If you have not, then say so. I had no sweeping statement or generalization, especially since I never said anything to the level of 'all believers are addicts'. I merely pointed out a pattern I have seen where it appears that believers are more likely to become addicts.
Obviously you do not have the thick skin you claim, since you clearly are offended by such honest questions. I really cannot help that I've not yet met a single atheist who is an addict, and that the worst addicts I have met have been strong believers. That is my life experience and so that is what I have to look at when I talk about such things. Also is it my fault that believers push their belief on others in the same manner a druggie pushes his/her addictions on others? I have had both drugs and religion pushed on me and I can very honestly say both groups use the same tactics.
If you dislike the manner in which I present my thoughts, then stop reading my posts. I am open and honest. I've yet to lower myself to the level I have seen with many believers who do nothing more then insult atheism with out any evidence or logic to back them up. I presented my observations here and what I could deduce from them. You wish to claim there is no pattern, good for you. You have just as much evidence to back yourself up in this as I have to back my case. There really is nothing out there to back up either side of this beyond our own personal experiences. So it ends up being nothing more than us relaying on our personal experiences to give us our individual beliefs in this matter.
I can promise you however that I do not come to such conclusion just because I am an atheist. I do not say such things just to attack believers. I honestly write about what I see and try to get some honest feedback.
I still very much think there is something to the idea of this post. And I will continue to think such until actual evidence of some manner is presented to me to show me otherwise.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 5, 2007 at 7:52 AM
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Re: cpklapper
The reason I have not responded to your questions is that they are of the order of "when was the last time you beat your wife". For one thing, true atheists are very rare. The people I know and have known in the past who were not believers were agnostics for the explicitly logical reason that the matter was unprovable. Hence, I would have to answer that I do not know any addicted atheists. The answer to the unasked and un-biasing question is that I do not know any atheists who are not addicted. The fact that I have known a few addicts and that some of them might not have been agnostic would mean that I might know a believer who is an addict. This assures that the answer to your questions would confirm your prejudice evidenced in your sweeping generalization that " believers push their beliefs on others like a drug". In that phrase began the tone of resentment towards believers which continued through your post with other little gems like the assertion that atheists are more logical than believers, questions of whether certain beliefs are more likely to produce addiction and so on. Such statements are, of course, rubbish and, being myself of thicker skin, I only find them insulting to my intelligence. Others who are more sensitive would, of course, find them personally insulting as was clearly the intent of your post.So when I point out that your approach was impolitic, to say the least, you simultaneously deny that you make sweeping generalization and make another sweeping generalization about why believers do not answer your biased questions. I hate to break it to you but your psychoanalyzing is pure hogwash. People who do not agree with you do not answer your biased questions for the same reason that people give goofy answers to patently biased survey questions: they do not like being manipulated.
posted by
cpklapper
on December 5, 2007 at 6:57 AM
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FineYoung
I agree with you, addictive behavior does not discriminate. Anyone can become addicted if they allow themselves to. In my experience it seems that believers are more likely to allow themselves to than non-believers. But that is what I have seen. Part of that may be that I do not associate with addicts in general and so the group of atheists I know are more sober. However that would not explain why it is that all the addicts I have had contact with in my life held belief in God, some very strongly.
I really do think there is something to letting belief have a certain level of control over one's life that opens them up to be more likely to allow something else, such as alcohol and drugs, to gain a firmer hold on you. Of course since I can find nothing in the way of research or studies on this, it is something I cannot prove, and so would never state it to be fact. It is something that I personally think has some merit to it though.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 3, 2007 at 3:52 PM
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cpklapper
As I pointed out in the post itself, there was no evidence to back me up. It was a observation I had made and would be interested to see if there is any link. I made no insult and no sweeping statements at all.
As with so many other believers you have ignored the point of the post, you have not addressed single question asked there and you somehow assumed I am angry towards believers.
Read Gomedome's reply here. He understood the idea of the post fairly well.
If you found this insulting, then you just did not get it. All I did was make an observation form my own life and ask questions about it. That is how we learn and develop our understanding of the world.
posted by
kooka_lives
on December 3, 2007 at 3:45 PM
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Making a few sweeping statements here, aren't we?
Psychoanalysis is on a weak enough scientific footing as it is -- subjects which can be mentally controlled are a biased population -- without attempting to applying it to whole demographic groups. Of course, scientific inquiry is clearly not your attempt here.
Sorry to have to confront you on this, but this post is nothing more than a baseless diatribe fueled by your anger against people who have done nothing to hurt you, indeed most of whom have never met you.
If you want to honestly discuss matters of philosophy and religion, even with a view to persuading others, you may find that you might actually get an attentive audience if you did not begin by insulting those you seek to persuade and insulting the intelligence of everyone else.
Carl Peter
posted by
cpklapper
on December 3, 2007 at 2:03 PM
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I know addicts and alcoholics of all religious positions.
Addictive behavior does not discriminate.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on December 3, 2007 at 11:17 AM
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kooka_lives - I don't know if there is any correlation either, or if it is
even a fair statement to imply.
None of my atheist associates are alcoholics, but we must always keep in mind that even when seeking the company of those who will not throw religion in our faces, our poll samplings from these few people are too small to be conclusive. The one person in my social circle that is an alcoholic is a borderline bible thumper but the reasons for this obviously lie outside of belief versus non belief. The only contention I can think of with any merit is found by expanding on your analogy of religion being a drug, religion could draw certain types of addictive personalities to it. Where some folks who have had a rough ride in life from drug and alcohol abuse, turn to religion as a means of finding strength. Either way, they are addictive personalities replacing one addiction with another, or attempting to find strength to conquer an addicition.
The only other path of reasonable assumption I can think of is that within the type of mindset that allows someone to overcome their religious social conditioning to form their own beliefs, there is less likely to be elements of self denial and self deception. Ingredients that can contribute to addictive self abuse. Still, this is all pretty slim to suggest causal factors.
posted by
gomedome
on November 30, 2007 at 8:06 PM
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no need to fight over what you already have
posted by
spinner
on November 30, 2007 at 6:34 PM
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Interesting read, I do not know any one from either spectrum. My beliefs avoid alcohol, cigarettes. One thing I have seen are many over weight people going into churches and I wonder if food addiction isn't as bas as the singled out 'druggie' or alcoholic. People will do what they please if their true beliefs aren't in the forefront!!!SAM
posted by
sam444
on November 30, 2007 at 3:18 PM
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