Comments on I’LL TRY TO CORRECT A BIG MISUNDERSTANDING HERE (reposted)

Go to The Reverend Kooka Speaks About Religious Bulls#!t - Add a comment - Go to I’LL TRY TO CORRECT A BIG MISUNDERSTANDING HERE (reposted)

Re: TheRevolutionary - You still clearly misunderstand a lot here
Ahhhhhhh......my point exactly.  Some people here need to practice that same thing!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 15, 2007 at 6:04 PM | link to this | reply

kooka_lives - This is one of the most pointless dialogues that I have been

involved in for quite some time.

Not once in this exchange has any challenge I have made been directly responded to. In this person's last response, you may notice that he is using a quote from one of your posts to refute my suggestion that he refrain from putting words in people's mouths. It can't be that difficult to keep just two people straight can it? 

I've said it before Kooka, you are a much more patient individual than I am.   

posted by gomedome on November 15, 2007 at 1:09 PM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - You still clearly misunderstand a lot here
Did you actually read the whole post "OKAY, SO I MAY ATTACK CHRISTIANS, WHAT'S YOUR POINT?"  Did you get to the point where I point out that ANYONE who openly expresses their religious views are attacking someone else's?
 
Taking bits and pieces of my posts and trying to use just those pieces to prove a point fails short of that.  You need to read the WHOLE post to understand what is being said.
 
There is no double speak here at all. If you read the full posts and try to grasp what is being said, it should not be that hard.  You just cannot take one of the two sentences as proof of anything.
 
I still think you have some preconceived notions about atheists that are causing you to not be able to look at my posts here as openly as you need to in order to get the actual messages I am expressing.

posted by kooka_lives on November 15, 2007 at 12:44 PM | link to this | reply

Re: TheRevolutionary - I'll be happy to bow out of this discussion if it upsets

It really does seem that there are people who need to believe in outrageous things for whatever reason.  I will never understand such a need myself, and as long as those people do not try to force their belief on me or promote their beliefs in a damaging way, I can leave them alone to be foolish. regretfully that does not happen enough .

This quote is in response to the your post suggesting that I be careful about putting words in peoples mouths!  OK...so I admit....I added delirious!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 15, 2007 at 5:54 AM | link to this | reply

WHATEVER!

If I misunderstand anything here it is certainly not any fault of my own!

For Example.....OKAY, SO I MAY ATTACK CHRISTIANS, WHAT'S YOUR POINT?  This was the title of a recent post! 

The idea that most of my posts are attacks against the Christian faith does have merit.....This is a sentence from the very same post!  Hmmmm...interesting

 

So to say I am attacking the Christian religion is fair, as it is fair to say I attack all beliefs!   I believe this is another statement from the same post!

ALL BIBLE'S SHOULD HAVE THIS WARNING ON THEM!  Ummm, I do believe this was the title of another post!

It would seem that many here believe I have a problem with religion and actual religious beliefs. That is far from the truth. I hold great respect for people’s beliefs. I defend the right for everyone to believe as they need to. I have seen people who have serious problems find their solution through religious beliefs and it has helped them to get their lives together.
That was an excerpt from another post !

I don't think I need to continue here!  If one would wonder why I was confused as to the real point of view of this Blogger, I think the answer to that question is a fairly easy one to answer

As I said before, I'm not trying to convert anyone here, so believe whatever you want to believe...more power to you!  

I would state that if there has been any inconsistencies in what I have posted it is due to the battle in my own mind of really trying to understand where your coming from, and my desire to be a real asshole....LOL  !!!  This however is something I will handle on my own, and realize that trying to keep up with all of the double speak here is basically useless......so have fun, and I'm sure we will disagree again soon!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 15, 2007 at 5:37 AM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - You clearly misunderstand a lot here
At no point have I (Or Gomedome for that matter) said you were trying to convert anyone with our exchange here.  You have however made some rather judgmental and generalized comments and have been unable to back them up fully.  For one thing the 'individualistic viewpoint' of an atheist cannot by any logic be viewed as being selfishness.  Finding power in one's self or understanding that you are the key to making your life as fulfilling as possible is not selfish in the least.  Somehow you are getting the idea of self-empowerment confused with selfishness.

I've yet to seen you make the point you claim to have made anywhere.  As I have said here in this post you have commented on "Any faith should be purely personal and should not be controlled or dictated by others, but should be something that speaks to you and is part of who you are."  I very much understand why believers need to believe as they do.  I have a very good friend who very much needed to be 'born again'.  I never needed such a thing and the problem came from him trying to tell me that I did.  I don't think he fully understood why he needed to believe.  In fact my guess is most believers don't understand this and that is why they have such a desire to push their beliefs on others.

 
I do feel reading your comments here that you entered into this with some preconceived ideas of how atheists think and have not read our comments as openly as you could have otherwise.  It really does seem that you are seeing some pattern in our comments that is just not there.  Just making the inaccurate claim that atheists are selfish because we do not see the need for God or a god in order to make ourselves better people greatly hints at this.  As well as your belief that I made some form of 'stereotypical' comment about Christians here.
 
The post right here that you are commenting about I would think serves as a prime example of not trying to stereotype Christians in any form at all.  Please reread it and see if you really do still think that is what I am trying to do.

posted by kooka_lives on November 14, 2007 at 8:31 AM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - now that's funny

You say this in an earlier comment: "I seriously haven't taken the time to read all of your postings.....I'm pretty sure what they all say . . . " Now you suggest that I watch the words that come out of my mouth? What would that suggestion be based on? That you have read a few things that you don't like but are unable to construct an intelligent argument to refute them possibly? My position is clear for anyone with the ability to get past their inherent bias. The major religions of this world are premised upon the observations and perceptions of ancient man. There was a time when these perceptions where in conjunction with the common knowledge base of our species but this hasn't been true for several centuries. Still today we have this massive blob of humanity that insists such impossible things as the chronology found in the Book of Genesis for example is possible. This would not be an issue if they would simply go home and be as backwards as they choose to be, we live in free societies after all but this is not enough for them. They want myself and my children to dumb it down to their level, to ignore reality and to reconcile their ridiculous ancient stories with a modern world that is increasingly unwilling to comply. Then they have the utter gaul to insist that imposition of this perspective on others is worthy of respect?  

When another bleeting Christian comes out of the woodwork and insists that I concede to them a respect for their beliefs that they have no intention of reciprocating, my answer is always the same . . . "You first buddy"  Take a look at your own words, mine are measured and calculated to be the converse of what I am forced to endure. I never knowingly utilize anything but facts to back my arguments. You on the other hand throw propaganda premised disparaging remarks around like chicklets. . . and the sad part is that your inability to think past your religious indoctrination and social conditioning has you actually believing that there are no inequities in your words.  

posted by gomedome on November 14, 2007 at 8:18 AM | link to this | reply

I'm not upset at all!  My Blogging experienced certainly will not be ruined by you, however I appreciate your concern!  If your position is not to stereotype Christians as delirious fools, then you should really watch the words that do come out of your mouth.  Like I said, if there is any writing you have done that contradicts this, i would love to read it.  I really would.

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 14, 2007 at 6:11 AM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - I'll be happy to bow out of this discussion if it upsets

you to the degree as it seems to.

I have no point to prove to anyone. I merely thought that someone who would post a blog entitled: "If Opinions are like A**holes..Meet King A**hole" in a public forum, would be a little more resilient to being challenged.

I will be blunt before I leave however, if it rubs you the wrong way, so be it. Why would you assume that either one of us have any interest or even a need to know more about Christians? Christian influence is virtually inescapable if one is born in North America. It is very likely that due to my age, my religious education and my strict religious upbringing that I know a great deal more about your religion and the people whom it envelopes than you do. I don't say this to validate my perspective, my facts and rational thinking stand entirely on their own. Instead I say this to illustrate that you are at a distinct disadvantage when entering into any form of discussion pertaining to non belief. Typical of every religious person that I have ever met that has gotten their "facts" from their church or their religious community pertaining to non belief, in the simplest of terms you know sweet diddly about non belief.

I'm not going to bother taking this any further, I have no desire to ruin someone's blogging experience. The final thing I will add however is this, when you suggested that either one of us, or both of us have said this: ". . . Christians are delirious fools!" . . This is not a position that I hold or have ever articulated in this manner, you should be a little more careful about attempting to put words in people's mouths.  

 

posted by gomedome on November 13, 2007 at 9:45 PM | link to this | reply

I'm merely suggesting that for those who don't know......they may consider the individualistic viewpoint of an atheist very much like the selfishness of a satanist. 

That is what I said in the last post!  Are you now saying that Atheists do not have an individualistic viewpoint?  I believe thats what you implied, or thats the way i took it, when you said something like not needing a God to feel whole or full.  Part of the Christian culture is thanking God for the good things in their life.  You two are obviously intelligent people and have made a decision to have faith that there is no God.  Fine by Me!  Satanism is based entirely on selfishness.  I believe you agreed in one of my earlier posts. Now read my re-posted sentence above.  I'm not trying to convert either one of you.  I don't care who or what you believe in.  Thats none of my business.  I will say (and you can write again and be pissed at me for me saying this), but in these posts.....you two are the ones that seem hypocritical here.  I tried to help you understand why some people may think what they do. I'm sure you will write back and tell me you don't need help understanding because you already know, however keep in mind I never said with absolute certainty that's absolutely why they believe what they do! Both of you are so much more consumed in believing that your right, than most Christians I know......which implies to me you are way out of touch with the typical Christian faith based person!  Again, since I must be as descriptive as possible so you don't read anymore into what I'm saying than I really am......I'm sure you both know some very ignorant people of the Christian faith.  Newsflash.....so do I.  I haven't read anything so far that tells me your open to understanding why a Christian believes what they do.  All I have read is why your right, and Christians are delirious fools!  I seriously haven't taken the time to read all of your postings.....I'm pretty sure what they all say, however if you have posted something that shows you understand where a Christian is coming from in terms of their faith, other than some sarcastic statement, I would be happy to read it.

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 13, 2007 at 7:55 PM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary- I never made any stereotypical statements
I very much pride myself on not making stereotypical or generalized statements.  I think you might be thinking about the last post before this one where I ask the question "Is this a general belief those who believe in God have?  Do all believers really hate mankind to such an extreme that they claim that we are nothing and are fully and completely worthless in the end?"
 
Or I say "To me this is as bleak and pessimistic of a view about humanity as it gets."
 
Neither of those is making a stereotypical or generalized statement.  One is an open question that I hope would get people to think about what it is they believe and the other is a clear opinion about certain beliefs.
 
Onto my views on Satanism now.
 
I have written about their beliefs and the post I wrote said there was value to be found in them, just as there is value to be found in any set of beliefs.  Some of their core beliefs would be good things for Christians to start following. Check my post on it out here.
 
 As Gomedome said, you really cannot compare Atheism to Satanism.  To even try to say that Atheists are all about themselves just holds no water at all.  I know more Christians who care only for themselves than I do Atheists.  Not believing in God has nothing to do with being selfish.

posted by kooka_lives on November 13, 2007 at 10:31 AM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - there are no similarities beween satanism and atheism

Both by definition and in a practical sense. An atheist is nothing more than an individual that does not believe God exists. Satanism is an ancient pagan religion worshipping what they believe are some of nature's life forces. There are no similar associative philosophies and no common life guiding precepts amongst atheists. In reality, there are few appropriate generalizations that can be applied to atheists. Except possibly honesty which goes right to the very root of what made them atheists in the first place. To attempt to draw a parrallel between atheists and satanists is again a derivative of religious propaganda. You use the word "selfishness" towards satanists which is derogatory, I cannot argue this point as I do not know a great deal about satanist philosophies but I can say of the atheists I have met in life, I am hard pressed to think of one that would be considered selfish beyond normal human self interest.   

"Many atheists can be just as offensive and rude."   Even taken out of context this statement is telling. Taking offense or finding someone to be rude, unless blatant and obvious, can quite often be in the eyes of the beholder. You have insulted me no less than twice but don't even seem to be aware of it. Do you always go around insulting people? I would bet that you do not but I (and many others) find statements based on nothing more than religious propaganda to be extremely insulting. They are also socially irresponsible.  

posted by gomedome on November 13, 2007 at 7:13 AM | link to this | reply

I'm not sure if you have ever read any of the satanic bible.  I will assume you haven't.  If you have you can correct me!  Most people who follow the satanist religion don't actually worship a central figure.  Its mainly a theory of a way to live your life.....much like Christianity, with the exception of worshipping God.  From what I understood it is based more in self reliance. As I had said in the last post, its a feeling of not really caring about society as a whole, and why do anything in life if it doesn't benefit you in some way.  I had stated earlier that I don't believe you have to believe in God or a God to have a good moral character.  Most Christians would tell you they have never even looked at a satanic bible, and really don't understand it, but for those sitting on the fence, who want to learn and understand could certainly link being an atheist and a satanist closely together.  I'm merely suggesting that for those who don't know......they may consider the individualistic viewpoint of an atheist very much like the selfishness of a satanist.  I know many Christians can be offensive, and rude in the way they present their beliefs and views.  Many atheists can be just as offensive and rude. I know its fun to ruffle feathers here, but if anyone wants to understand anyone else besides themselves, then you need to have conversation with others, not finger pointing.  If your (not meaning you) here just to piss off people, then so be it, you just won't be furthering your cause, for the better anyway!  I brought up satanism because of the similarities, and I was tired of beating a dead horse!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 13, 2007 at 5:50 AM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - that's your best response so far, though I'm not quite

sure where Satanism fits in.

It is a religion just like any other, central guy to worship and a few underlying philosophies that its adherants mostly ignores.

In this post Kooka is taking the converse position to a widely held misconception that is endured continually by non believers from the believing majority. I don't necessarily or automatically agree with everything written in this blog but I do get it. I have to agree with you that it is unfair to use broad generalizations. This is also true when speaking of motives or compelling influences to some degree and as for your "hell yea" statement, now you have actually qualified it but it seems you do not even realize this. "That was in the context of explaining the possible difference between the two."

So, we have the earlier semi qualification in that the "sins" (wrongdoing) was not intended to mean serious crimes and now it is merely explaining the possible difference between the two (belief perspectives). Why could you not have just said this about 4 comments ago? To qualify this statement in this manner is the difference between a callous and obtuse generalization based on misconception and a sincere enquiry.

posted by gomedome on November 12, 2007 at 9:13 PM | link to this | reply

Re: TheRevolutionary - you may not have noticed that we are in a public forum
ok...Look.  kooka made a stereo typical statement about believers having low self opinions and self esteem I believe it was, because they need to exist only through God.  That was a blanket statement itself.  Not suggesting that I feel this way, I made a suggestion as to why some believers feel that they are living a very full life, and are very satisfied and believe that they are going to an eternal afterlife after this one is finished.  It was Kooka who suggested that he couldn't understand this existence because he obviously doesn't believe in an afterlife.  He said he didn't know how someone could live a full satisfying life by living it for or through God!  I never stated...or if I did, I would apologize for getting wrapped up in the writing that all atheists or agnostics go on crime sprees or sin freely because they believe that when they die they are done.  You don't have to repost my "hell yea" statement.  That was in the context of explaining the possible difference between the two.  If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to tell you!  I will say that I had a roommate in the Army who was a satanist, and a copy of the satanic bible sat on his nightstand for the year or so we roomed together.  I had many detailed conversations with him about his chosen religion, and the most I got out of it "for what its worth" is that satanists are all about the power of self.  Complete independence in thought and self.  Satanism is a very selfish religion.  Why love your neighbor if your neighbor doesn't love you back?  Why do anything for anyone if you get nothing out of it in return.  I'm not even suggesting that this view of life is wrong.  I would certainly say that it is just the opposite of what the Christian faith is supposed to be about.  There are definitely bad Christians.....they have been all over the news.  There are idiots everywhere, and to stereotype everyone based on what you see on the news, or even the few individual idiots you may know personally is a very limited view to have!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 12, 2007 at 5:51 PM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - you may not have noticed that we are in a public forum
Comments, even on the blogs of others do not have quite the same expectation of privacy as person to person dialogue or other forms of communication, so spare me the "butting in" contention. There is no hatred involved in suggesting that someone qualify an all encompassing blanket statement that amounts to nothing more than the proliferation of a negative stereotype. To suggest as much demonstrates that you have missed the point entirely.

posted by gomedome on November 12, 2007 at 12:26 PM | link to this | reply

Again, I will disagree with you.  It looks like you butted in when I wasn't speaking to you!  I was responding directly to Kooka about his statements that believers have such a low opinion of themselves because they do believe in a higher power.  If you cant take what I said at face value without finding some other form of hatred toward believers than you are the one with problem....Not I!  I am not or will not belittle you for not believing in God.  It seems all you can do here is try to insult people who do!  Again....I was responding to a direct statement from Kooka about the low opinions and self esteem of believers.....get over it man....sheeeesh!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 12, 2007 at 10:57 AM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - that's a nice cop out, agreement or disagreement is not

actually relevant.

Again, you made this statement: "If you have nothing to live for after this life is finished, then hell yea...do whatever you can whether it is considered sin or not....because it doesn't matter in the end." Then you added the qualifier that you were not implying a severe degree of "sin" (or wrongdoing). Still, you are implying that some people, somewhere, adopt this philosophy with non belief as the underlying motive compelling them to do so. Who are these people? Imaginary people? Real people that you know about and the rest of us don't? Or is it as I have suggested simply religious propaganda?

The reason the latter is most likely is simply because just about everyone alive attempts to plan their lives to some degree. There are certainly people alive who live from day to day with reckless abandon, without regard to the future and with the attitude that nothing matters in the end but this primarily immature mindset is not the preserve of those who do not believe in God. Nor would I try to suggest that not believing in God gives an individual any particular heightened awareness of a bigger life picture but that is ultimately where I take exception to your statement. You are in fact implying that a belief in God heightens an individual's awareness of an overall life picture. Making such a statement without any form of foundation in reality other than it sounds good and plays well amongst others who buy into the notion. Unfortunately you made such a statement here where it does not play well.  

posted by gomedome on November 12, 2007 at 10:07 AM | link to this | reply

To Me It Does
So we'll have to agree to disagree

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 12, 2007 at 7:57 AM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - defining the degree of "sin", in this case analogous

with wrongdoing, does not qualifiy the statement.

Other than to solidify my initial interpretation of what you were saying.

posted by gomedome on November 11, 2007 at 9:14 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Revolutionary - No one is arguing with you simply for the sake of arguing
I can see why you may have thought that, however my thoughts were among the not so criminal type of sin....lol  Like I said I wasn't talking about raping, murdering, and pillaging.  I'm not even suggesting that you have to believe in God to have good moral judgement.  I happen to believe in God, but my relationship with him is my business, and I don't feel the need to make everyone believe what I believe, as long as in return no one forces their beliefs on me!  I'm not suggesting you are!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 11, 2007 at 8:46 PM | link to this | reply

Revolutionary - No one is arguing with you simply for the sake of arguing
This is an unqualified statement: "If you have nothing to live for after this life is finished, then hell yea...do whatever you can whether it is considered sin or not....because it doesn't matter in the end." It is hard to tell if you are expounding this notion as the inevitable outcome of not believing in an afterlife, it sure sounds like it.  

posted by gomedome on November 11, 2007 at 6:26 PM | link to this | reply

Re: TheRevolutionary - your comment was rather funny
I think your intitial reaction to want to find something to disagree with me about made you not really understand what I was trying to say.  I was relating to a statement in the original post here, that the fundamental difference lies in the here and now versus the later.  I was not suggesting that we rape and pillage because it simply won't matter in the end.  I was just making an observation!  Why do people try to argue....when there is really nothing to argue about?  At least not in this case!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 11, 2007 at 6:08 PM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary
I do understand that to many people this life is unimportant compared to what they believe is still to come, and that is a big part of the problems we have here on earth.  I feel the there are those in power who really do not care about the here and now because they see as a 'stepping stone'.
 
All concepts I have ever been presented of an after life have never appealed to me.  I don't want to live forever, because that would trivialize life here and now. The only way living forever could work would be to be in a drug like haze the whole time, and that does not sound appealing either. But an non-belief in the afterlife does not mean you can whatever you want and not worry about the consequences.  Since all we have is this life, we need to make the most of it and have respect for those yet to come.  I want my boys to be able to live lei to the fullest, so I want to make sure the world is as good as possible for them, since they only get the one shot at it.
 
And the debate about 'if it matters in the end' has popped up here many, many times now.  Some Christians honestly believe it does not matter in the end. If you believe in Christ and ask for forgiveness, then you get into Heaven, no matter what ills you preformed in life.  By this logic Hitler could have gotten into Heaven.  Trust me, that whole concept has already been done to death here.  The idea of forgiveness that is very often preached by Christians allows for Hitler to get into Heaven and can back fire and send the more moral of people, even believers, straight to Hell.

posted by kooka_lives on November 11, 2007 at 5:57 PM | link to this | reply

TheRevolutionary - your comment was rather funny
You attempt to rationalize religious propaganda. The reverse of your argument and one that has a basis in simple observation as its foundation is this: The world is a screwed up mess because so many people who have been preparing for the afterlife have neglected the real concerns of the here and now. The suggestion that to realize we must make the most of this life also brings with it an abandonment of morals and principles is fairly lame stuff. It also opens up a entire different set of questions, such as; who's principles are being abandoned? If you attempt to answer this by saying "prevailing societal expectations of common decency" . . then those of many religious persuasions had better get cracking.   

posted by gomedome on November 11, 2007 at 5:42 PM | link to this | reply

Interesting post by you to say the least!  I am quite surprised, and it was nice to see you clarify your position on religion rather than completely dismiss others beliefs as crazy and ludicrous.  I do agree it is quite fun to ruffle feathers sometimes, however the only way to truly understanding the ideas and beliefs of another is to open your mind and listen!  The one thing that I would mention here based on your last post concerning how low believers must feel about themselves if they need God to feel good about themselves.  I think the issue here that you have seemed to overlook when you say "I can't imagine and existence where your really not living life to the fullest"  or something to that effect.....would be this.  Religious believers in Christ, or whoever their particular God is strongly believe that this life is just a stepping stone to what lies ahead.  This life is minuscule in comparison to what the afterlife has to offer.  Believers live this life in preparation for the next one.  Non-believers live in the moment as you have described.  If you have nothing to live for after this life is finished, then hell yea...do whatever you can whether it is considered sin or not....because it doesn't matter in the end.  Christians happen to believe it will matter in the end.  I respect your opinion in religion, and I am not a fan of organized religion either.  I think organized religion has kept more people away from the church, than new members it gained.  One political note here would be this...Not all conservatives are right wing religious whacko's, as all democrats are not left wing radical socialists.  Somewhere in the middle is where I believe the majority of Americans really are.  They just don't make for very good news stories!

posted by TheRevolutionary on November 11, 2007 at 4:28 PM | link to this | reply