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Offy - the fact that 70 people can go along with such convoluted ideas is
extremely scary.
There will always be the odd individual amongst us that sees things in their own unique way but I wonder what pressures and other influences cause a group this size to adopt such idiotic philosophies. Many of the influences must lie beyond the realm of simple religious indoctrination. Where there are numerous examples of authoratative, communal, peer and societal pressures, both within religious beliefs and without, causing large groups of people to adopt unique precepts, the ideals that this group is attempting to exemplify lie beyond any form of reason. It is very unusual to see a group this large so willing to demonstrate such socially repugnant behaviour. I feel they are rightly labelled as a hate group first and foremost, their proclaimed religious denomination is almost irrelevent in that they are an independent church.
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2007 at 10:41 AM
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Re: Re: Re: FYS.......Now...Now...You are applying absolutes
Corbin, it's all good, my friend!
I also have a few gay friends, and they are in very long-term relationships. I feel the exact same way you do about the issue.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on November 1, 2007 at 10:09 AM
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That group is a bunch of idiots. I saw they were sued by a military family and the family was awarded 11 million. I dunno if it will stand but it sends a message to these so called Baptist ( which I don't know any Baptist who are of such a minds.) The daughter of the pastor (or his wife I can't remember) is scary just to look at....
posted by
Offy
on November 1, 2007 at 9:50 AM
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arGee - I can agree with that - on a broad level; democracy and the
subsequent ideals of personal freedoms and liberties are derivitives of philosophies popularized by men such as Jesus Christ.
Where his message was in its simplest form, one of caring for all human beings and that we are all viewed equally in the eyes of God, enabling all individuals through the processes of a democratic system then becomes a natural extrapolation from this ideal. Capitolism on the other hand has evolved as the most efficient vehicle to which these ideals are met, while at the same time fulfilling a number of human needs.
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2007 at 9:29 AM
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Especially interesting, Gome...
Is that modern capitalism and individualism really stem from thought that has its roots going back to early Christianity.
This is why, I believe, that primarily in Western Civilization do we find the greatest personal liberty and highest science/technology levels. Whatever was the real essence back then, it produced us now.
posted by
arGee
on November 1, 2007 at 9:00 AM
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Re: Re: FYS.......Now...Now...You are applying absolutes
I stand corrected......I read your comment wrong......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2007 at 8:34 AM
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Re: FYS.......Now...Now...You are applying absolutes
Corbin, if you are being serious here I think you might have misread what I'm saying. "the majority" is not an absolute; The majority of Christian denominations preach the damnation of homosexuals. The majority does not equal all.
But if you're joking, then 
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on November 1, 2007 at 8:28 AM
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arGee - fortunately, Christianity, as is the case with all major religions
based on ancient doctrines, has evolved away from those types of socialist ideas.
I don't know of any current Christian groups other than extremely fringe elements that adhere to that particular proclamation. Most have found other passages to adhere to as a means of justifying their capitalist slant.
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2007 at 8:18 AM
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Re: Corbin and Gome, I try to comment to both of you in one post...I hope I
FYS.......Now...Now...You are applying absolutes...that are just not true! Do you think that applies for me? I have numerous friends that are homosexuals, couples that have been together for years......I don't judge them...that's God job not mine......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2007 at 8:04 AM
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One of the things that bothers me about
Christianity, Gome...
Especially in its "purest" form, is an insidious socialist slant. There is no mistaking the admonition to "sell all your goods, and give the proceeds to the poor," to paraphrase a comment Jesus was supposed to have made to a rich man.
There is a reason why many early Christian groups formed communes in the desert. The whole idea was to give up all worldly possessions to follow Christ. They put everything into the kitty, and lived jointly out of the kitty from then on.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Marx didn't invent this.
posted by
arGee
on November 1, 2007 at 8:00 AM
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FineYoungSinger - that's a good point
At one time, the man was a compadre of Billy Graham, the alignment of their personal beliefs vectored off from the same foundations. We would be living in quite a different society if some of these long proliferated religious foundations adhered more to the underlying philosophies of Jesus Christ.
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2007 at 7:50 AM
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Re: Re: Corbin_Dallas -They are indoctrinated from birth with hatred
O man, this is so true! This is exactly the way I see it! This guy was indoctrinated since birth that gays are going to hell....now he's splintered off into his own little crusade, but what of those that taught him? Aren't they just as guilty? They planted the seeds.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on November 1, 2007 at 7:45 AM
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arGee - I watched the interviews on CNN last evening.
First they interviewed the father of the dead marine. He's my age, I have a child that is also 20 years old, after witnessing his reasonable demeanor, I could not help but identify and sympathize with him. I just cannot imagine what would compell a group of people to compound the grief of a person like this, especially with such an idiotic message. Then they attempted to interview Fred Phelps, . . . what a simpering, raving, chucklehead that man is. There is something beyond the letter of the law to be examined in this case. Simply put; the Westboro Baptist church members have crossed all boundaries of good taste, decency and respect.
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2007 at 7:44 AM
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Corbin and Gome, I try to comment to both of you in one post...I hope I get
it all down the way I'm thinking it....that's burned me before 
This problem really stems from a basic streak that runs through the majority of Christians: That nasty habit of judging others. I will put money on it that most Christians object to his methods and his target, but still believe and preach that homosexuals are going to hell. The only way for Christans to stop him and idiots like him is to stop judging from the pulpit. That's not their job: "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord."
This guy didn't start out in his own religion...he more than likely sat through hundreds of sermons damning gays to hell. Therefore, I think if Christians want to stop him and morons like him, they need to reevaluate their beliefs watch what they teach their congregations, and then take responsibility for planting the seeds of these completely incorrect ideas into their heads.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on November 1, 2007 at 7:42 AM
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I was going to tell you, Gome...
About the judgment, but I see you already know. Sometimes the system works just fine, doesn't it.
posted by
arGee
on November 1, 2007 at 7:34 AM
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Re: Corbin_Dallas and FineYoungSinger - in fairness to the other Christian
True...that same attention is what alerts people to be prepared for their activities.....I know "Rolling Thunder" keeps track of their schedule.....
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2007 at 6:57 AM
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Corbin_Dallas and FineYoungSinger - in fairness to the other Christian
Communities, they pretty well all denounce his methods.
His group is also listed as a hate group by the social agencies that monitor such things (mostly because of his ongoing crusades against gays). The attention aspect is an important point. Who would have heard of such a twisted group of numbnuts if not for the media attention they have garnered and our penchant to have our attention drawn to those things we encounter in life that have shock value? On the other side of the coin however, there is the aspect of collectively articulating exactly what is socially unnaceptable about this group's behaviour.
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2007 at 6:54 AM
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Re: Corbin_Dallas - the part I don't get is how a group that numbers around
To answer the first part......one has to also understand how a group gathers together to form say......a street gang, the skinheads, Hammas, The American Nazi Party. They are indoctrinated from birth with hatred.......
As the question about the lawyer.....hmmmmm??? Look at, say, Ramsey Clark.
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2007 at 6:50 AM
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Corbin_Dallas - the part I don't get is how a group that numbers around 70
can have so many people in it willing to do these things?
I understand that they are mostly family members and we can assume that there is a bit of a "Jonestown" type of mentality involved but is it simply patriarchal, peer and communal pressure that makes a group of people do this? As you mention; a number of them are lawyers. Last time I checked it took 7 years of college and a certain level of academic acumen to become a lawyer, in short; they don't give law degrees to monkees. That is the part that I ultimately have the most trouble understanding. How can someone have what it takes to be a lawyer and yet still subscribe to a premise so perverted that it doesn't pass the laugh test?
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2007 at 6:42 AM
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Re: Re: FineYoungSinger - yesterday he lost big time in court
FYS......How do Christians stop him???
Kentucky and several other states have passed laws trying to keep them back at least a quarter of a mile from a funeral site......Federal courts have ruled such laws unconstitutional......it's a sad but necessary part of our "freedom of speech", he has the right to say those things.....the problem comes from those who give him the very attention he craves......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2007 at 6:39 AM
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Re: FineYoungSinger - yesterday he lost big time in court
Wow. I think I can sum it up in a simple phrase: WHAT A CRACKPOT!
You know, gome, the biggest question that comes to mind is this: what is wrong with the Christians that allow someone like this to spread his poison? He's more dangerous to Christianity than a ticking timebomb. "Religious perversion at its most insidious" : well put, gome.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on November 1, 2007 at 6:31 AM
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I had the opportunity of meeting them face to face..........
at the 5th anniversary at the Flight 93 memorial.....they are pathetic and represent nothing to do with true Christian values.....even the smaller children were shouting vile things at the people walking by.......there were 16 Pennsylvania State Troopers protecting them....one of the sergeants explained how they hated their assignment...most of the adults in the family are lawyers and specialize in suing......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2007 at 6:27 AM
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FineYoungSinger - yesterday he lost big time in court
A judgement against him of $10.9 million including punitive damages. His church members, who are comprised primarily of his family, have been picketing at the funerals of soldiers around the US until one father of a 20 year old marine who died in Iraq had enough. It is very difficult to follow the premise of his twisted logic, it makes very little sense as does he when interviewed. They tried to interview him on CNN last night but all he could do was rave like a lunatic about discrimination against Christians and how the US is losing soldiers in Iraq because God is sending the US a message.
If I have his nonsensical ravings sorted out; I think because he believes that gays (whom he has no problem referring to as "fags") are lesser beings in God's eyes, soldiers killed in action by a God who is sending a message share the same level of disdain. Hence the signs carried by the funeral picketers that make reference to the soldiers all being fags. It is religious perversion at its most insidious.
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2007 at 6:20 AM
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I've never heard of Fred Phelps.
but all I had to read was that he protested at the funeral of a dead Marine.
Married to a marine, and damned proud of it...Semper Fi. Mess with the best, die like the rest.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on November 1, 2007 at 5:54 AM
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