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Re: FineYoungSinger - it's all part of the selling job
only a vehicle---EXACTLY!!! It's up to the individual to actually live it. Anyone that thinks that reading a book labeled "sacred" or sitting in a building for an hour or so one day a week and partaking in a ritual is diluding themeselves.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 31, 2007 at 9:17 AM
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Talion - that's quite a comment - it could have been a post
I've been asked variations of this particular theme as a question a number of times over my lifetime. Usually something along the lines of how is it possible for an atheist to have a conscience or something equally as inane. The fact of the matter is; that while I completely agree with your suggestions that our behaviours are learned during our developmental years, there is a bit more to it than simply learning on a conscious level.
I feel that human behaviour, or at least some of the common characteristics we all share, desire and expect from others, are instinctively influenced at a sub conscious level as well. Written into our DNA (or wherever such things are written) as a survival mechanism, our species has imprinted the ability to understand the differences between desirable and undesirable social behaviour when we are born. This instinctive collective will need only be nurtured and allowed to manifest itself positively for the majority of our species to "turn out okay".
posted by
gomedome
on October 30, 2007 at 9:06 PM
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gomedome
It seems there are a things forgotten by the individual who asked those questions. That's the community aspects of belief/organized religion and much of what and who an individual is results from learned behaviour and personal experiences.
The first two questions focus on aspects of lonliness, who atheists turn to, and do they feel it. Even without a church or some other grouping, atheists/agnostics have family and/or close friends to lean on in times of trouble. A person who is emotionally healthy forges strong bonds with others. These bonds carry him/her through the rough spots in life, whether there's a unifying belief in a creator being or not.
As far as doing the right things and treating others well, these are learned behaviours. Such things are (or at least should be) taught to every child as he/she grows up. Think about how the average two-year old acts. That is what we as humans are, self-absorbed, egotistical, little monsters who will do anything they can think of to get their way. Concepts such as honesty, sharing, fairness, moderation, discipline, etc. have to be taught by parents and other responsible adults, most often with rewards and punishments. As a child gets older, as his/her experiences become more intricate, so do the lessons. Long before a child can even conceive of a God, he or she should have the foundation for at some future time becoming a responsible citizen. Those who don't recieve the "proper" foundation usually become self-absorbed, egotistical, big monsters who will do anything they can think of to get their way.
In a nutshell, it's a variation of more of the same old nonsense that everything deemed positive in life can only be attributed to "God" and atheists/agnostics/unbelievers are wretchedly unhappy and lousy examples of humanity. While it's somewhat refreshing to see someone questioning the foolish notions, it's truly surprising that anyone would even have to ask in the first place.
posted by
Talion
on October 30, 2007 at 3:16 PM
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strat - exactly, respecting the rights of others is the fundamental premise
What more can we ask of anyone but that they be responsible contributors to society?
posted by
gomedome
on October 30, 2007 at 2:43 PM
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Antonionioni - I'm always suspicious of people claiming to have had a;
"direct personal experience with God"
I don't doubt that they believe what they are saying in most instances but I have yet to encounter the retelling of such experiences that did not fall into one of 3 categories: 1. Social conditioning to attribute an inexplicable favorable outcome as God's handiwork (God never has his hand in people's bad luck), 2. an inexplicable experience or manifestation that the individual is intent on explaining as God's handiwork, again due primarily to social conditioning and 3. bullshit.
posted by
gomedome
on October 30, 2007 at 2:40 PM
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FineYoungSinger - it's all part of the selling job
A belief in God can be influential in making an individual a better person but it is only a vehicle. The inherent qualities of the individual (or lack thereof) will eventually manifest themselves and would do so in just about any circumstance where someone is influenced by a positive life guiding philosophy.
posted by
gomedome
on October 30, 2007 at 2:32 PM
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.Dave. - what can I say other than; great minds think alike
posted by
gomedome
on October 30, 2007 at 2:21 PM
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Kayzzaman - you share feelings - really?
So you think the Buffalo Bills are going to recover from a poor start to make the playoffs too?
posted by
gomedome
on October 30, 2007 at 2:20 PM
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richinstore - thanks for reading
posted by
gomedome
on October 30, 2007 at 2:18 PM
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I suppose ultimately the question is really irrelevant.
Who cares how you come to do those things, as long as you do those things? I don't care if you worship dessiccated lizard lips, as long as you, one, don't push that stuff at me, and two, demonstrate those aspects outlined in the questions posed in this post.
posted by
strat
on October 30, 2007 at 1:25 PM
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It is hard to reject the hope of a benevolent God, but to be honest,
what else can you do if you are honest, unless you have had direct personal experience of God?
posted by
Antonionioni
on October 30, 2007 at 11:51 AM
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well explained. Among many believers, there is a false ideal that faith
alters behavior; that somehow magically through believing in God, all human nature will be wiped away. It IS possible to be a good, moral human being, and to love one another without believing in God at all. Good post, gomedome, as usual.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 30, 2007 at 7:44 AM
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Agreed. Again. Yes, all of it. Again.
posted by
_dave_says_ack_
on October 30, 2007 at 6:26 AM
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I share your feelings.
posted by
Kayzzaman
on October 30, 2007 at 1:28 AM
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gomedome
thanks for sharing
posted by
richinstore
on October 29, 2007 at 10:03 PM
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