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FineYoungSinger - the priest scandal has reams of evidence where your
Satanism contentions have next to nothing concrete.
I find it more than a little ironic that a catholic would use one of the biggest ongoing scandals in the history of the catholic church to attempt to prove an unsupportable point. Why were priests untouchable for so many years? Two reasons, they had/have the full backing of a trillion dollar enterprize and they were not in fact universally untouchable, their transgressions were instead systematically covered up or had money thrown at when all else failed. The truth of the matter is that there is no one outside of the Vatican that has any real idea of the scope of this problem.
I've found this dialogue more than a bit disappointing. You have attempted to correct me on my contention that Satanism is an obscure fringe element by suggesting that it is a lot more widespread than it is. From having medical professionals performing exorcisms in your first comment to attempting to draw a parallel between the mythical evasion of prosecution by Satanists and the real evasion of prosecution by priests, when all is said and done you have accomplished nothing. Your don't know any Satanists, your proof of their existence and their widespread nefarious activities is entirely anecdotal in nature.
I can only suggest at this point that you re-examine your own arguments.
posted by
gomedome
on October 14, 2007 at 10:37 AM
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Re: FineYoungSinger - back to the point for a minute
Have I? Your entire argument sounds familiar---very much like the arguments of Bishops that covered up the sexual misconduct of their priests within the Catholic Church for so many decades, and the unwilling pewdust that couldn't believe that their very own Father O'Malley was capable of sodomizing a 14-year-old boy.
"How many of these people do you know that have dedicated their lives to ritually abusing others?" None. But at the same time, I don't know a single priest that sexually abused a child, either. Should I therefore not believe that happened?
"there is still only anecdotal evidence making a connection between abuse that some one may be subjected to and the motives of the abuser." Same for the priest scandal, gomedome. And look at the ramifications. It took decades for the victims to be taken seriously. There is clear evidence in both cases, even if it is "anecdotal"; and there are many health care professionals that have dedicated their careers to getting to the bottom of this behavior.
"It simply is not possible..." Yes, I know, dear, it's hard to believe that people would have an ideal of life and then raise their children in the same ideal, expecting them to carry on their traditions---or is it?
"You speak of decades of this happening, do you really think it is possible that such widespread criminal activity could so successfully evade prosecution for so long?" How many years, even decades, Gomedome, did it take to prosecute those priests? Why were they untouchable for so many years? Think about it, then draw the same conclusions.
Oudie on this topic.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 14, 2007 at 9:00 AM
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Xeno-x - that is the main point, only expanded a little bit
The idea of Satanism being the threat that Christianity makes it out to be is utterly ridiculous. They have not only swelled the numbers exponentially of this almost imaginary foe, they have caused more problems amongst their own constituents in unnecessary fear and anxiety than Satanism could ever hope to. (that is if they were the real threat that Christianity insists that they are). Satanism on this grand scale is real only to them, with the majority of problems that it causes pertaining to mental health and other anxiety propagated maladies being entirely self inflicted.
posted by
gomedome
on October 13, 2007 at 1:22 PM
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Re: Qualified people, Gome... I agree completely arGee
There are a few publicly known churches of Satan as well but they are, from what I understand, into things different than what we perceive of Satanists. (I've never had enough interest to check them out, probably never will)
The points I make in this post have been illustrated by opinion, endorsement and demonstration. Satanism is a micro fringe element that cannot possibly be the threat that Christianity insists that it is.
posted by
gomedome
on October 13, 2007 at 1:13 PM
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I THINK THE MAIN POINT IS
That the entire idea of Satanism is ridiculous.
From the viewpoint of those Christians and other religions that believe in Satan as evil and his followers as pure evil perverted minds;
or from the followers with perverted minds that believe in Satan.
Sort of like Jesus -- enough people believe in the image and that image becomes real even though the image itself is pure nonsense.
Funny how so many people can believe in something concocted by a medieval Church engaging in superstition.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 13, 2007 at 8:56 AM
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Qualified people, Gome...
Are often the most gullible in their area of expertise. James Randi has pointed this out numerous times when debunking this or that expert-verified paranormal phenomenon. Because they "know," they often fail to verify.
I can envision a disgruntled group of religious (Christian) young folks playing around with the "forces of evil" as a way to rebel, even to the point of inventing rituals, costumes, and rules. I can even see this phenomenon "catching on" and spreading from community to community. Because of its "nefarious" nature, however, I don't see it catching on in a larger sense. Conclusion: "Satanism" probably exists here and there in relative isolation, probably not taken very seriously by the members, occasionally getting out of hand as with Charles Manson. Bottom line: So what! Who cares? I've got better things to do with my time!
posted by
arGee
on October 13, 2007 at 7:46 AM
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Dark_Moon - that must be a conclusion drawn by the same people that say
atheists are responsible for human sacrifices.
Just who are these atheists making these sacrifices to?
posted by
gomedome
on October 12, 2007 at 10:47 PM
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FineYoungSinger - back to the point for a minute
I said in this post that I have never met or heard of the type of people that you describe. "We're talking about a group of people that are getting off on this kind of behavior, and dedicating their lives to it." I've met sadists and have certainly heard of them but people " . . .dedicating their lives to it?" How many of these people do you know that have dedicated their lives to ritually abusing others? In a broad sense we could include serial killers or other sick people but there is no common thread of Satanism amongst them and that ultimately is the point. Grasp as you might to the notion that there is a connection between satanism and MPD, there is still only anecdotal evidence making a connection between abuse that some one may be subjected to and the motives of the abuser.
It simply is not possible that there is this large underground cult of people motivated by a need to abuse others who have derived justification and motivation for doing this from a worship for a mythical being. You speak of decades of this happening, do you really think it is possible that such widespread criminal activity could so successfully evade prosecution for so long? The more you comment on this the more you convince me that this conspiracy of ongoing ritual abuse is nothing more than a popularized fabrication proliferated by people unable to connect the dots.
If you believe it to be true, like it or not, all I can say is that you have been had by systematic proliferation of agenda laden misinformation.
posted by
gomedome
on October 12, 2007 at 10:43 PM
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arGee - not being a mental health professional I cannot content to what
degree MPD is accepted within the mental health care community.
I can say however that a number of qualified people lend some credence to it. The discussion itself is getting away from my main point. I've never met a member of a satanic cult, I can only assume that this is so because their numbers are incredibly small.
posted by
gomedome
on October 12, 2007 at 10:23 PM
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Christians accuse Wiccans (one form of witch) of being 'Satan worshipers'. Wiccans I know don't believe in Satan or the Devil or any such entity. One Wiccan I knew (can't remember who) said it best (IMHO): "Satanists are confused Christians". LOLOLOLOLOL This is probably off point to your post. Sorry. Just wanted to share. Moon 
posted by
magic_moon
on October 12, 2007 at 4:30 PM
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It's time to point out something, Gome...
That has not specifically been mentioned in this discussion. Most clinicians do not even accept the diagnosis of MPD. The mainstream medical community remains unwilling to accept MPD as a genuine human condition. I know that I have found no convincing evidence of such a disorder. Your readers may be arguing nothing more vital than how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
posted by
arGee
on October 12, 2007 at 3:38 PM
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Re: Re: FineYoungSinger - you are taking this discussion on a tour of selective
Furthermore, once you've bought the book and read the chapters dedicated to Satanic ritual abuse, you'll see that the author of the book I quoted has very strong opinions regarding this topic, which I posted in a comment previously.
Part of the problem is that people don't want to believe that a person can be so horrible, so evil, so self-absorbed and pleasure seeking that they would subject someone (a small child specifically, generally their own children, as MPD results from long-term, systematic abuse beginning in early childhood) to this kind of torture.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 12, 2007 at 2:00 PM
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Re: FineYoungSinger - you are taking this discussion on a tour of selective
There is no selective reasoning here. I'm telling you that a branch of medicine is willing to accept, and has been finding evidence to support the fact that Satanic cults exist. The large spike in the number of MPD cases over the last two decades is an indicator of it. Therefore, there is a link between MPD and Satanism.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 12, 2007 at 1:51 PM
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Re: I think I'm seeing two sides of the same coin here.
The thing about MPD, however, is that it's not a meltdown, but a very specific kind of defense mechanism that results from severe abuse. You have to understand that the kind of abuse that causes MPD is unthinkable---it takes years, beginning with very early childhood and continuing on for at least a decade, to create an MP. To say an MP has been grossly abused is probably the understatement of the century--we are talking physically, sexually and verbally, in a near constant manner--often the abuse is systematic and carried out by more than one abuser.
The personality split is a result of the child protecting him/herself from the abuse that's taking place. They "pretend" they're someone else, and because their minds are so young, they can become a new "personality". The personalities are highly suggestive, and this is where the cult activity comes into play--abusing "in the name of Satan" is a gross oversimplification of what's happening here. We're talking about a group of people that are getting off on this kind of behavior, and dedicating their lives to it.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 12, 2007 at 1:46 PM
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FineYoungSinger - you are taking this discussion on a tour of selective
reasoning.
If we are quoting Dr. Colin Ross now let's paint a complete picture:
"Although there is increasing evidence that ritual abuse does take place, clinicians working with individual patients cannot be sure whether they are dealing with fact and fancy"
"I have had clinical contact with about 300 cases of MPD....in which the person had memories of involvement in a destructive Satanic cult.....In none of these cases has the reality of the memories been objectively verified, and in several of them collateral history has proven that patient claims of Satanic ritual abuse were false."
I do agree however with some of your final paragraph. Enough people believe that Satanic cults exist to create a real problem which manifests itself in: " . . . an unbelievable number of similar disorders . . . " . . I am not arguing this point, I am only suggesting that it is selective reasoning in the fact that amongst comparable numbers of MPD cases there are also alien abductions and past life regression evident or manifest. Unless you are trying to suggest that Satanic ritual abuse is the sole cause of MPD which I don't think you are saying, what are the common elements?
Whether you realize it or not, the point of this post has been illustrated by your arguments.
posted by
gomedome
on October 12, 2007 at 1:41 PM
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I think I'm seeing two sides of the same coin here.
FYS, you have made a good case that a group of people who indulge in certain practices might exist, and they might call themselves Satan worshippers. I think if you systematically abuse someone, under any circumstances or in the name of anything or anyone, the result is going to be the same -- mental disaster, peronality meltdown, whatever -- which is what I am gathering that Gomedome is trying to say. I may be wrong on all counts.
And Gome, that article you dropped the link to is hysterically funny, until you realize that the writer is absolutely serious. Then it's just sort of pathetic.
One point I might advance is this: There simply are far more people in the world than there ever have been in the known history of the world. We're also at a time where urban legend is spread around the world as fact at the click of a mouse. So I would conjecture that, the more people, the more loose nuts and bolts we have running around out there, all of whom have heard these things before and for whatever reason glom onto it, and probably nearly all of whom have access to the internet, the media, the phone, the local bar, whatever.
Whatever, it makes for good entertaining reading and lively conversation. Thanks, all, for indulging my little speech here! Cheers!
posted by
strat
on October 12, 2007 at 12:56 PM
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Re: FineYoungSinger - what do you want me to say? There is not a
First off, the widely accepted cause of MPD is not fear, mythology, or acute anxiety. MPD is caused by extremely severe physical abuse. An overwhelming rise of MPD cases in the 90's, the majority claiming to be linked to what is termed Satanic ritual abuse, has been very well documented.
From Satanic Ritual Abuse: Principles of Treatment by Colin A Ross, MD.: "On the basis of the historical record, it is possible that Satanic human sacrifice cults could be active in North America in the 1990s. Thus, even though we do not know whather such cults actually exist, in treating patients making claims of Satanic ritual abuse, it is important to bear in mind that nothing they describe is without historical precedent. Such perspective is essential because extreme skepticism tends to destroy empathy and obstruct the formation of a treatment alliance."
In other words, just because they don't have direct documented evidence that Satanic cults exist, enough people believe it, claim to have been victimized by them in a way that has caused an unbelievable number of similar disorders that can only be caused by severe abuse.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 12, 2007 at 11:28 AM
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Robert Heinlein wrote a wonderful book, Gome...
Called
Job – A Comedy of Justice. In it his character finds that Heaven and Hell are just "places," and Satan really isn't so bad after all, and ultimately decides that given a choice, Hell it is!
posted by
arGee
on October 12, 2007 at 11:10 AM
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FineYoungSinger - what do you want me to say? There is not a
"possible connection" as you put it.
Which implies Satanism as a causal factor of MPD. Links between Satanism and MPD are of a recurring phenomenal nature. As are links between cases of alien abduction or past-life regression and MPD. Satan is a powerful concept for some, powerful enough to cause mental imbalance and due to the complex and highly evolved mythology surrounding this concept, it can be the propagator of a number of mental disorders. That is entirely different than Satanism causing MPD. If there is one thing that mental health professionals do agree on it is that any form of acute anxiety can propagate mental health issues and any of these anxieties can manifest themselves in MPD. As either causal factors (the fear of Satan, not Satanism itself) or as demonstrated phenomena within the multiple personalities.
posted by
gomedome
on October 12, 2007 at 10:31 AM
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Re: Re: FineYoungSinger - sorry, but that to me is merely a typical example
http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss096/mulhern.htm
http://caic.org.au/fms-sra/colin.htm
http://rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism16.html
http://fmsfonline.org/mpdsra.html
http://www.ccom7.org/MPD.htm
http://www.rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism12.html
Here are just a few things I've found on the internet regarding the link between MPD and Satanism. I only skimmed them; but on a google search over 18,000 possible sites were produced. Now, as I said, I only skimmed these that I've listed; some of these articles discuss its validity; some its invalidity. Either way, it's pretty clear that the psychiatric/psychological community has taken this possible connecton serously enough over the last 20 years to study it, regardless the general consensus.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 12, 2007 at 9:54 AM
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Re: FineYoungSinger - sorry, but that to me is merely a typical example
Go check it out. You might be surprised.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 12, 2007 at 9:34 AM
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FineYoungSinger - sorry, but that to me is merely a typical example
A mental patient suffering from MPD is about as obscure in terms of occurance as it gets. Then you drag exorcism into it as if an equally obscure religious ritual would be utilized by a legitimate mental health professional . . . pullease. I don't doubt however that it was quite the case, nor do I doubt that there is a sub-culture associated with Satanism but a link to Satanism and MPD?
posted by
gomedome
on October 12, 2007 at 9:32 AM
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Xeno-x - teenage rebellion - it's funny when you think about it
I used to work with a guy that hated his father so much that he constantly sabatoged the family business at every opportunity. The family business was growing Christmas trees. As teenagers we would plant them in nice neat never ending rows as part time student work. The owner's son would come along right afterwards and run over all of the freshly planted seedlings with a tractor. ....what more can I say.
posted by
gomedome
on October 12, 2007 at 9:21 AM
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.Dave. - so you are in picture mode these days
posted by
gomedome
on October 12, 2007 at 9:13 AM
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Actually, gome, I know a psychologist that feared for his life for years
Becuase one of his clients was a high "priestess" in a satanic cult. I'm calling this client a "she" becuase that is what my friend called "her". He could have changed the identity to female to protect her anonymity. The client was not abducted; but raised by her parents, both high priest/priestesses in this cult.
She was severely abused from birth--sexually, physically, mentally--and was plagued with multiple personalities as well; my friend at first thought his client was just very disturbed. But as worked with his client over several years, and further researched multiple personality disorder, he found several psychologists that have treated a number of m.p.'s who were in the same predicament, and found that there is a link to satanism and m.p.d., which is not just a defense mechanism against the abuse; but is also a controllable phenomenon, as clinical studies have shown (m.p.'s are highly suggestable).
My friend uncovered an entire subculture through his research for this client, and finally had to find an exorcist that could deal with his client. I'm sure his case is completely documented, but he cannot violate confidentiality--the client prefers to remain anonymous.
I guess it was quite the case.
posted by
FineYoungSinger
on October 12, 2007 at 8:33 AM
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SATANISTS ARE CREATED BY CHRISTIANS
who have created the mythical notion of Satan in the first place. Now,there will be those who refer to the Bible -- however, the character that has been created full blown and described and is the father of Rosemary's baby and numerous incarnations of the Beast and Antichrist comes from a very few verses that say nothing really.
I know a young man who has problems otherwise who proclaims himself a Satanist. I know nothing more than that, except that he feels as much as some Christians that Satan does exist. His overall problems stem from family matters, known and unknown, and I believe his Satanism is a reaction to his Father, who is a member of a mainline Christian denomination, who himself exhibits behavior so that I understand the young man.
If the god of one's father seems objectionable because of one's father, then one reaction is to embrace that god's enemy.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 12, 2007 at 8:28 AM
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posted by
_dave_says_ack_
on October 12, 2007 at 8:10 AM
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