Comments on Let us find common ground in our beliefs

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Re: ladyoflight - of course there are exceptions to every general rule

I concur.......:).... peace be with you....

posted by ladyoflight on September 26, 2007 at 6:43 AM | link to this | reply

ladyoflight - of course there are exceptions to every general rule

There is no identifiable group of people anywhere that doesn't have a few amongst them that they wish they didn't. The person is just a jerk, plain and simple but we are not in disagreement. "Religion or non-religion should be personal..... not forced" . . . exactly.

posted by gomedome on September 25, 2007 at 10:59 PM | link to this | reply

Re: ladyoflight - I have to agree that the ultimate commonality is that we

Forcing anything on anyone when it comes to god or non-god, is not a matter of degree....I have a friend who is a non-believer..... and I respect his opinion... and we don't discuss god.... however, he has mercilessly antagonized , made fun of and aggressively bullied some of his believing friends and strangers..... taunting them with the book he is currently reading on the non-existence of god..... so yes, I do believe that this compares and equals that of others forcing their outdoor religious practices on unwilling participants.....  Religion or non-religion should be personal..... not forced.   Thanks for opening up the debat  :) peace be with you......

posted by ladyoflight on September 25, 2007 at 8:30 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Are you sure, Ladyoflight (and Gome)...

ArGee.... I am sure that during my lifetime, I will live only on this planet.... unless you have a spaceship to take me to the closest star......:)....but will go read your article.....  I would never presume that this is the only inhabitable planet.... just the only one I know.....

posted by ladyoflight on September 25, 2007 at 8:24 PM | link to this | reply

Now I am just too disappointed for words

posted by kooka_lives on September 25, 2007 at 3:43 PM | link to this | reply

Thank you Gomedome and I agree 100% about Mother Earth and all of her inhabitants. I'm glad you decided to renew that subscription!! Moon

posted by magic_moon on September 24, 2007 at 11:15 PM | link to this | reply

Talion - I have to agree with your assessment, that's basically how it has

it has gone and without a doubt, the scenario brings up mental health questions.

The funniest part is the broken record mantra of the same old ideas that must be reconciled despite being ridiculous and irreconcilable notions. I can drop links from March 2005 that cover every last same old argument to the point of nauseum. Where I have lately conceded and lamented my own staleness in terms of new ideas, if I ever get that bad, where the staleness is bridled to both obsessive behaviour and an inability to see the complete lack of logic in my arguments . . .  I would seek professional help.

posted by gomedome on September 24, 2007 at 11:08 PM | link to this | reply

gomedome

To a certain degree he clings to the concept that all who do not believe in some type of higher power must be evil, but you (and to a lesser extent Kooka) garner special attention. As I've said before, there are other agnostics and atheists here who also paint unflattering portraits of religion, but they are not met with the same zeal he reserves for you. Somehow you personify, you are the living, breathing embodiment of all he claims is wrong with the world. You made the startling transformation to "nemesis" the instant you rejected him. As long as the banter and the arguing continued, all was well (for lack of a better term) because as you mentioned in this post, it's the old "Let me take a stab at convincing you that your beliefs are wrong and that my beliefs are right" ploy. However, when you blocked him, when you let it be known with astounding clarity you did not wish to continue any type of dialogue, it moved from the abstract philosophical to the concrete personal. You just didn't disagree with him. You ridiculed him, his beliefs and cast him aside. Needless to say he's not taking it well. This makes this whole strange scenario less about philosophical differences and more about revenge. Be glad you live in another country and not across the street.

posted by Talion on September 24, 2007 at 10:56 PM | link to this | reply

~Peace, OTA

posted by Blue_feathers on September 24, 2007 at 10:42 PM | link to this | reply

Talion - I'm still trying to figure out how I have become the "nemesis"

after not having commented on the author's blog for a year?

And little did I realize that this post was a direct refusal of some imaginary peace offering. I always get a laugh out of the quick jump into talking about the evil forces in this world whenever the peanut gallery references me or other non believers. There is definitely an ironclad belief that all persons who do not believe in God are evil and considering that it has been over 3 years of this nonsense, there is at least one person that may spend the rest of their lives attempting to bridge this inconsistent notion. There has to be professional help for that type of affliction.

On another note: I have a few friends of polar opposite philosophies, as a matter of fact I just returned from playing hockey where a good friend of mine of many years (and my defense partner) is a Baptist minister. Mind you, I had to train him to keep his invisible friends to himself before we became friends.

posted by gomedome on September 24, 2007 at 10:31 PM | link to this | reply

Dark_Moon - that is one heck of a comment, a post in itself that adds quite

nicely to the notion of finding common ground.

I've always felt that any form of charity that is conditional upon being subjected to proselytizing is simply selling and nothing more. On a similar line of reasoning to the notion of service to man being a service to God, where I come from caring for Mother Earth and all of her inhabitants is a form of worship to God. It matters not if this being referred to as God exists in this light, all of us are better off with the more people that adhere to these simple principles. . . . again nice comment, it is refreshing to read such things despite the depiction of civic bureaucracy run amok.  

posted by gomedome on September 24, 2007 at 10:13 PM | link to this | reply

gomedome

In a post a while ago, I wrote about one of my closest friends, a white, Christian, Republican. Here I am a black, agnostic (with a heavy atheist leaning), Democrat. From the ways each of our demographics is portrayed in the news, you'd think we'd be at each other's throats. However, in all the years we've been friends, we've never exchanged a cross word. The reason is we never, ever discuss subjects involving race, religion, or politics. No, these are not taboo subjects we dare not mention out of fear. They simply never come up in our countless and varied conversations. We don't dwell on the three things that serve as the most divisive elements because we've found so many other wonderful things that aren't. I doubt we could ever find common ground in our beliefs, but there's so much other grounds that we never have to go there.

On a side note, I see it's now official. You, the dreaded Iconoclast, are indeed the wicked nemesis. I must admit after reading his last two posts I experienced mixed emotions. On one hand, there was the Ah-Ha! I knew it! moment upon realising my theory is true. Unfortunately, the thrill was short-lived. I hoped I was wrong about this whole situation.    

posted by Talion on September 24, 2007 at 9:18 PM | link to this | reply

Gomedome, I used to 'attend' a 'religious' group whose leader stresses service to man as one of the most important ideals. One might say that it is number 1. According to his teaching, service to man is service to God which he says is sevice to your self. (sort of like, I suppose, when Jesus said, "love your neighbor as yourself" or whatever it was) Anyway, members of the group went every night for 3 years to the downtown area, under overpasses, under bridges, anywhere the homeless gathered to sleep - the ones who wouldn't for one reason or another go to the shelters. I averaged about 5 nights a week. Eventually, the mayor and her cohorts got the city to pass an ordinance making such activities illegal. There were all sorts of arguments pro and con. But, when it comes to things like that, the city can pretty much do what it wants under 'police power' and 'health and sanitation'. It was a losing battle. I was pleased about one meeting that I went to and was gratified when the police and city leaders got flustered by the following question from me which they were unable to answer. After having asked them a series of leading questions, I inquired "Okay, let me be sure I have this straight. If I'm a street vendor selling sandwiches and I'm in a zone that allows street vendors, if I hand a sandwich to a hungry man and he pays me for it, it is okay but, if I hand the same sandwich to a hungry, penniless homeless man and just give it to him, then I have committed a crime." They got 'the deer in the headlights look' because, of course, the answer was 'Yes, it is a crime.' We also gave clothes, blankets, hygiene products, limited 'medical' supplies, etc. etc. Some of the finest people I have ever met in my life lived under those bridges. But, we, along with a host of other groups, couldn't fight city hall. We were frequently told by the homeless, "If it weren't for you we wouldn't make it." or "I need the food, yes but, what is more important is that you care about us." Anyway, a lot of other groups did similar things. Their food give aways were usually tied to bus rides in vans to Bible study classes, church attendance, or at the very least, an 'impromptu' street sermon. One of things that I liked best about our activities was that after 3 years, none of the homeless knew what 'religion' we followed or what 'faith' we were or, etc. Our teacher stressed that we should never preach or proselytize about such things. Most of the homeless just assumed that we were some Christian organization and we never told them different. Several remarked that we never said anything to them about religion. Anyway, after that long ramble, my point is, why don't we just find common ground in helping one another and making the world a better place for people to live. Why don't we start living from our hearts and forget about 'correcting' whatever silly notions someone might be carrying inside their head. Peace. Love. Moon

posted by magic_moon on September 24, 2007 at 7:10 PM | link to this | reply

Are you sure, Ladyoflight (and Gome)...

That we have only one planet? Please check out my just posted article on this subject: Manned space exploration vs. science vs. Steven Weinberg.

posted by arGee on September 24, 2007 at 5:27 PM | link to this | reply

Antonionioni - that in a nutshell is the failing point of the non believing

individualistic mindset.

Because non believers do not cloister in groups for reasons pertaining to their beliefs, things such as the communal support structures and philosophical reaffirmation never materialize. By the same token however, the byproducts of religious communal groups such as; exclusivity, ostracism and the incipient desire to have everyone else live by their standards never materialize either. My fear is that any effort to mimic the communal structures of religious organizations will have the participants acting a lot like they do.

 

posted by gomedome on September 24, 2007 at 12:06 PM | link to this | reply

We need to provide alternative ways of providing individual and group

reassurance that religion provides. Hard to do - material success is one way but that has proved damaging and divisive too.

posted by Antonionioni on September 24, 2007 at 11:53 AM | link to this | reply

ladyoflight - I have to agree that the ultimate commonality is that we only

have one planet.

But forcing non-beliefs on others? That is normally not an issue, or at least it is fair to say that if it is an issue for someone it is almost always one of perception. Most people that do not believe in God do not prosletize or wish to practice "non believing traditions" in public or in any manner. When it is considered that amongst those who do believe in God, a number of them do prosletize or attempt to garner subscription for their religion and most lament the fact that they cannot practice their religious traditions in public, regardless of how many unwilling participants they may envelope. . . . to suggest that there are people forcing non belief on others hardly compares.

posted by gomedome on September 24, 2007 at 10:13 AM | link to this | reply

Common belief...... we have to share this earth...... so let's share it......  Let's not force our beliefs on each other, I agreed.... Let's not force our non-beliefs either and make fun of those who do belief......  Makes for one big black hole......  so......let's share the earth.......  :)

posted by ladyoflight on September 24, 2007 at 9:51 AM | link to this | reply

arGee - I got up this morning and realized that this is my Blogit

subscription renewal day.

I didn't feel like canceling today so I'm here for at least another month.

I remember Madalyn Murray O'Hare. A reminder to us all that there is "one" in every group. There is probably not a public figure in history that did more to undermine in general public sentiment, the very things she stood for. In that regard she is a perfect example of the duplicitous behavior of some of the zealots we have around here.

There is a certain amount of naivete and a whole lot of closed mindedness in the thinking of anyone who is insistent that others must accept their version of God. It accomplishes nothing but the proliferation of acrimony, yet they will proclaim for anyone that will listen that they are promoting a common good.

posted by gomedome on September 24, 2007 at 9:19 AM | link to this | reply

I guess you didn't wrap it up after all, Gome...

You make a good point. Don't you think, however, that those who least conform to your ideal are the ones who cause the most trouble? We all know about the religious zealots here. I also remember Madalyn Murray O'Hare, the Atheist rabble-rouser from the 60s and 70s.

Too bad we can't all follow the wisdom contained in the Indian name for a Wisconsin lake: Argogagogmanchuogagogchaubenaugengamog (which means: you fish on your side, I'll fish on mine, and we'll both stay away from the middle).

posted by arGee on September 24, 2007 at 8:23 AM | link to this | reply