Go to Religion in the Modern World
- Add a comment
- Go to Why are atheists such good people?
gomedome you're right
I need to change my subscription in order to change the template. Thank you for the code.
posted by
Matie
on August 3, 2007 at 4:43 PM
| link to this | reply
Soul_Builder101 - you can extrapolate anything you want but it is always a
good idea when commenting to attempt to stick to things said or implied in the post.
This post used real statistics as a refutation to a commonly held misconception that atheists are untrustworthy, which is also backed by real polling statistics. I've even made the concession, both in this post and in comments that there are problems with these types of statistics but nowhere did I say that they are indicative of the moral values held by atheists. I can connect the dots for you if you are having trouble following: * untrustworthy * criminal acts generally associated with untrustworthy people * inevitable punishment for those acts via our penal systems * any group widely deemed as untrustworthy should, by an extension of simple logic be represented in the penal system populations at least to a degree that they are represented in society. But there seems to be a disparity in these respresentations, if nothing else this fact throws the ball back into the court of those who are still insistent that atheists are untrustworthy. (again, the point of the post) How have they come to this conclusion?
posted by
gomedome
on August 2, 2007 at 9:21 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: Soul_Builder101 - you are missing the point.
Maybe I am! However, I am not going to extrapolate from the statistics in such a way as to impute that Athiests may have moral values. I do not believe that the disparity you noted has ANYTHING to do with spiritual affiliation or lack of it. This being said, I believe whatever stereotyping as exists does so independent of the statistics and has no positive or inverse correlation with the prison diversity. In short, there are patterns of arrests which went into populating the prisons that have nothing to do with society's views of atheists or of guessing whether athiests should/ should not be more/less represented ( in prison)than they already are.
posted by
Soul_Builder101
on August 1, 2007 at 4:40 PM
| link to this | reply
Living_Life_Large - thanx for stopping in
posted by
gomedome
on August 1, 2007 at 8:28 AM
| link to this | reply
Xeno-x - there are undeniable common elements amongst all prisoners of most
penal systems.
Lack of education and lack of economic opportunity being the most common. Societal discrimination also plays a role, if not in the outright incarceration; in the societal framework imposing barriers to higher education and economic opportunity. Where it cannot be said that being an atheist is the same as being a visible minority, the level of disdain levied against them by a believing majority can in some instances be similar. At least in the respect that the disdain eminates from nothing more than prejudice. These realities, both in the common elements amongst prisoners and the similarity of prejudice towards atheists suggests that there should be more atheists in prison.
I don't really put much stock in the type of statistics I used to make my point in this blog as there are so many factors that can distort their accuracy. But again; one would think that atheists would be a little closer in percentage prison population to their percentages in society.
posted by
gomedome
on August 1, 2007 at 8:26 AM
| link to this | reply
another item concerning blacks/white in prison
accessibility to good lawyers
again economic
plus
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 1, 2007 at 7:51 AM
| link to this | reply
christianity has historically been violent
and hasn't really taught the values we need to live a good life
it has had almost two millenia to change the world for the better -- and all you see in its history is violence.
regarding the percentage of blacks to whites in prisons -- look at the economic status -- i think one commonality among prisoners is the economic background from which they all come. And a higher percentage of blacks exist in a lower economic stratum. And this has to do with their historic lack of opportunity.
i would suppose when we compare percentage in prison to percentage in a certain economic stratum, we might discover a more equal result.
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 1, 2007 at 7:23 AM
| link to this | reply
The reason I read this . . .
is because Blogit posted your comment about you're not having this much fun since you broke your arm. I neither agree nor disagree with what you're saying. Even wise-cracking, pot-stirrers have their place! I hope you take this as the compliment that it's meant to be.
posted by
Living_Life_Large
on August 1, 2007 at 7:20 AM
| link to this | reply
Soul_Builder101 - you are missing the point.
There are many reasons why different groups of people are incarcerated but in general terms; a lack of education, social economic disadvantage and yes, in some instances outright discrimination are all prevailing and related factors. None of this however is relevant to my point which is that ultimately, and with all factors considered, there is not a disproportionate representation of non believers amongst the prison populaces of western societies. When it is considered that atheists, though non visible as a minority group are held in some contempt within these societies and considering the negative stereotype proliferated by adherants to religion, this reality illustrates that at the very least the negative stereotype of atheists being untrustworthy is baseless.
posted by
gomedome
on July 31, 2007 at 10:50 PM
| link to this | reply
Then...........
Then a breakdown by minority/majority grouping is required. Minorities have their own problems with the justice system vis-a vis customary citizens or whites in the northern hemisphere. Could it be an ongoing stereotyping of minorities or is it some other factor not pertaining to religion? I know that many people brought up in religion care nought for it though their affiliation remains unchanged!
posted by
Soul_Builder101
on July 31, 2007 at 8:59 PM
| link to this | reply
Talion - when are you going to come back and blog again?
What's it been now, over 2 months? That's holiday enough dontcha thoink?
posted by
gomedome
on July 31, 2007 at 8:23 PM
| link to this | reply
Soul_Builder101 - you forget that what you are saying about blacks having a
disproportionately higher incarceration rate is specific to the USA.
I did specifically refer to statistics from all of the western nations and not just the USA. There are similar factors present throughout all prison populations in all countries but to encapsulate them, most are due primarily to the social-economic disadvantage of visible minorities. I also made a point of mentioning some related caveates in this post and in comments. You imply that the black populace does not have the same proportion of non believers as other identifiable groups, I am not certain if that is proveable. It may well be just another misconception proliferated by a believing majority, they seem to be quite good at that.
posted by
gomedome
on July 31, 2007 at 8:21 PM
| link to this | reply
You blog
You were doing fine until you used prison population as your knights gambit. Why are BLACKS the majority of the prison population? They are mostly Christian! Could be that the real reason for the CHRISTIANS-in-prison majority has nothing to do with their programming as christians or their forfeiting of morals or lack of any atheist virtues!!!!!!!!!!
posted by
Soul_Builder101
on July 31, 2007 at 7:59 PM
| link to this | reply
gomedome
The reason none of your detractors can substantiate their claims is simple. Bigotry needs no proof. Bigotry needs no justification.
posted by
Talion
on July 31, 2007 at 7:36 PM
| link to this | reply
Is there any truth in the simple observation that more men than women are atheists? Lol.
posted by
A-and-B
on July 31, 2007 at 2:39 PM
| link to this | reply
Antonionioni - I think it is fair to say that some opinions expressed in a
public forum (any public forum) and based on the way some people interact with others, indicates that life ain't easy for some folks.
posted by
gomedome
on July 31, 2007 at 11:35 AM
| link to this | reply
I wonder if some Blogiteers are in prison? You'd think so, from their
viciousness!
posted by
Antonionioni
on July 31, 2007 at 11:27 AM
| link to this | reply
Matie - your Blogit interface will be a bit different than mine
It is almost a certainty that you are on a subscription plan that is using extensible stylesheet langauge (xsl) which is a little different than the much older subscription plan that I am on. There was a time when I had an inventory of templates for anyone to use and I would be happy to give you one but I do not think it will work any longer on the new subscription plans.
HERE is the code for this one and directions for its installation but as I said, it is unlikely that you will be able to use it. I have an interest in doing a few templates for the new interface simply to make myself conversant with the use of xsl but then there is also the level of membership to consider; I have been led to believe that those on the basic membership plan do not have access to their blog code. Check these things out first and if you still want to pursue it, I may be of help.
posted by
gomedome
on July 31, 2007 at 9:04 AM
| link to this | reply
OTA. - there are a number of sources for these statistics with all polling
having slightly different parameters.
Prisoners entering the system have been asked during arraignment, studies have been done amongst short timers and long timers as well as inmates on death row. I feel the death row numbers are almost meaningless as the element of facing one's mortality is a huge factor. I also feel that older numbers from years past are almost meaningless as well simply because a common means of demonstrating reform for parole boards was to proclaim a newfound belief in God. It is when modern day polls of large sample groups (over 50,000) of short timers who are not subject to parole are conducted and that reflect the dispraportionate representation of belivers versus non believers is when the commonly held misconception of the trustworthiness of non believers begins to be overturned.
posted by
gomedome
on July 31, 2007 at 8:46 AM
| link to this | reply
.Dave. - I feel that the prison stats must be taken with a grain of salt
There are a number of influencing factors that can easily make those types of polls innacurate, things such as I mention in this posting of prisoners wanting to demonstrate reform etc. but we can extrapulate that the converse of what is indicated by the statistics does not seem to be true. In that; if atheists were as untrustworthy as is generally perceived by a believing majority, this would be illustrated in these polls. There should be at least something in the statistics to indicate a higher incarceration rate for a group of people that are deemed as untrustworthy but there simply is not.
posted by
gomedome
on July 31, 2007 at 8:37 AM
| link to this | reply
They are nice people because they do not have dogs.
posted by
Jenasis
on July 31, 2007 at 8:34 AM
| link to this | reply
Well, I'm agnostic..
...but just because I realized that there are so many religions in the world that how come only *and only* one can be the true and real faith? Why must that imply that other's faith is invalid?
BTW, how did you change the template of your blog? It looks awesome, I want to change mine too. 
posted by
Matie
on July 31, 2007 at 8:03 AM
| link to this | reply
Gomedome
Those statistics interest me.. are the prisoners asked as they are entering the system.. or during release? I've done some work in prisons and will say that I don't recall ever meeting anyone that described them selves as atheist in them. The cold environment of prison lends itself to the need for inventing affection.. even if it is a fictional God. Interesting post. ~Peace, OTA
posted by
Blue_feathers
on July 31, 2007 at 7:45 AM
| link to this | reply
The prison stats are interesting Gome. I've been reading Richard Dawkins recently and he cites a whole load of stats I found very surprising. Well argued, as ever.
posted by
_dave_says_ack_
on July 31, 2007 at 7:28 AM
| link to this | reply