Go to Les Seymour's Questions
- Add a comment
- Go to REBUTTAL OF WAVYDAVY'S
Re: Not to mention the VASTLY superior situation that we trade rather than
Decshak:
You are blunt and to the point. Kudos to you.
posted by
EX_TURPI
on August 6, 2007 at 8:16 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: The REAL reason manufacturing jobs are going overseas...
Good point concerning furniture manufacturing.
posted by
WavyDavy
on August 4, 2007 at 4:27 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: EX TURPI
Enigmatic68: I'm a big fan of Lou Dobbs. I wish that he would run for president. He certainly has changed his tune regarding trade policy. Reality has set in for him.
posted by
WavyDavy
on August 4, 2007 at 4:24 PM
| link to this | reply
Not to mention the VASTLY superior situation that we trade rather than
fight with foreign countries.... If we become islationists we will find our heads in the sand and nukes up our butts.
posted by
WindTapper
on August 4, 2007 at 1:11 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: At present, the United States and the rest of the world are in flux,
Saul:
We don't live in a perfect world; and never will. We must, however compromise, and adapt. I still believe that sometime, in the way distant future notwithstanding, borders will not exist. Certainly they will not be what they are today. Technological advances will render such divisions impossible.
Twenty five years ago, we could not communicate as easily as we do now. Look how quickly we arrived at this point. There is no longer any barrier to our talking to any one in any part of the world. Indeed, the restrictions to this process put up by governments will crumble. I predict borders will go the way of the dinosaur.
Stay well; walk good my friend.
posted by
EX_TURPI
on August 3, 2007 at 7:06 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: The REAL reason manufacturing jobs are going overseas...
Sophomoric:
If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that furniture manufacturing has been outsourced primarily because of the hazards of the process. That is to say US workers no longer have a preference for such an occupation. I'll accept your word for it.
Yes, the polluting effects of China's environmental deficiencies will certainly affect us adversely, sooner or later. I hope pressure from their customers, particularly the US, will prompt them to make the required changes before we here have to pay the price.
Stay well; walk good my friend
posted by
EX_TURPI
on August 3, 2007 at 6:50 AM
| link to this | reply
The REAL reason manufacturing jobs are going overseas...
I will limit myself only to the area in which I am expert; the furniture industry. The common misperception is that furniture manufacturing jobs are going overseas because labor is cheaper there. It is, but that savings are totally off-set by increased shipping costs (furniture is bulky and heavy) and a higher defect rates. So it is, at best, a "push". Why then are they going to China & Viet Nam?
Because furniture making is a fairly toxic endeavor. The chemicals in foam cushions are highly toxic, the glues & lacquers in wood furniture are no friend to the environment, and don't even get me started on leather & textiles. But China has no such thing as an "EPA" and certainly no Green Party. You see photos from China with entire streets of people wearing cotton surgical masks to filter out the pollution.
We keep acting as if the planet were NOT a closed ecosystem. But really, poisons put in the air & groundwater "over there" will make there way here.
posted by
Sophomoric
on August 3, 2007 at 2:42 AM
| link to this | reply
At present, the United States and the rest of the world are in flux,
technologically, economically, ideologically, culturally. Systems search for balance and efficiency. Human nature being what it is, we'll never see pure egalitarianism or socialism or whatever. Rampant technological and economic advances have spurred an increase in religious fundamentalist and extremist backlashes. And yet, those same fundamentalists use the technology and economic benefits to further their causes. Progress is certain. Our reactions to the process are not. Globalization and free trade, outsourcing and open borders are all part of the flux. Personally, I agree with the Dobbs alignment for the present, given the current global atmosphere. Ideally, EX TURPI, if we could depend on people and governments to be fair and trustworthy, I agree with the one-world stance. Good debate, guys.
posted by
saul_relative
on August 2, 2007 at 9:17 AM
| link to this | reply
EX TURPI
China is overpopulated. That's why, if a mother gets pregnant more than once (especially with a girl), she's dragged off (often literally, kicking and screaming), to the nearest abortion clinic. Just for the record, I don't support that method of "birth control." I've heard differing views on numbers in the military. I f we do need more people, we should reinstate a new and improved draft - in other words, wealthy people's sons' - don't always just "happen" to end up in the National Guard, etc...One of the reasons we (may) have an underpopulation problem is, one of our favorite American pasttimes - abortion - if we hadn't aborted (legally), all those children, since 1973 - there'd me many more people in the U.S.. And no, I don't think there would have been (anywhere near) that many abortions, over the years - if it hadn't deemed a "Constitutional right." If the only way we can build up our military, or fill American jobs is with illegal immigrants, we're (in my opinion), experiencing the decline and fall - of American civilization. Take care.
posted by
Enigmatic68
on July 29, 2007 at 1:17 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: EX TURPI
Enigmatics68:
By the way, I like Pat Buchanan. I do not always agree with him but I think he presents his views without malice and rancour.
I respect your conviction. I'd say we need to correct the anomalies that there are. It will be good for all concerned. Yet, I do not see there will ever be a retreat from the expansion of the global economy. The adjustments would be catastrophic for all the participants, especially the United States. Nor is there any indication that either political party will champion such a reversal.
On another occasion, I will give the reasons to my suggestions on immigration. I am sure you are aware that to successfully compete, an economy needs an optimum population. Compared to China, and India, and Indonesia, the US will fall behind unless we find some way to increase our population. Unfortunately, immigration is the only way we can keep up. Have you noted the difficulty we have maintaining the strength of our armed forces?
Stay well; walk good my friend.
posted by
EX_TURPI
on July 29, 2007 at 7:53 AM
| link to this | reply
EX TURPI
I respect and appreciate your views, and people with similar views. But the "Fair Traders" have convinced me, that they're position (as opposed to the "Free Traders"), on this issue - makes much more sense. First, I started to listen to (and read), Pat Buchanan's books, on the issue - I know he's a very controversial figure, so there's no need to remind me, lol! 
But my complete conversion happened, after I read Lou Dobbs' last two books, concerning this issue - on this, and the illegal immigation issue, I'm with Buchanan/Dobbs, all the way. Again, I respect your intellect and your passion, as someone with an opposing viewpoint. 
posted by
Enigmatic68
on July 28, 2007 at 3:06 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: Rebuttal Of WavyDavy's
WavyDavy:
All you say may be true. Oftentimes, business and economies are not restrained or contained by logic and sound reasoning.. They play out based of pragmatics and realities. Yes, we have a long way to go before there will be fair trade; but we will get closer and closer as each of the developing economies become more secure. The protectionist policies will crumble.
When I used the term isolationist I was mirroring the politicians' description. Indeed, at the outset, I indicated your arguments are reasonable.
Have you ever traveled from Britain to France, to Germany, to Italy and on and on? They are all members of the European Union, yet culturally they remain distinct. Open borders will not necessarily change peoples way of life and culture. Canada has a defacto open border with the US. This has been so for a long time; yet a Canadian is not a replica of an American, nor is an American a replica of a Canadian. Yes, each culture will be somehow diluted, but that dilution expands the other's horizons. We will appreciate one another better. There will be less wars and confrontations.
Finally, this is a debate. People debate those whose point of view they respect. I just hope others in our blogging community will chime in on this and other issues. This will enhance the benefits we get from participating here.
Stay well; walk good my friend.
posted by
EX_TURPI
on July 28, 2007 at 11:22 AM
| link to this | reply
Rebuttal Of WavyDavy's
Ex Turpi: I'm not an isolationist. I'm a nationalist. I believe in fair trade not free trade. Many of these nations that have trade surpluses with us, namely China, have governments that prop up certain industries. China steals many of our patents and won't let us expand into their markets completely. If you think about it, there really isn't any such thing as ''free trade.'' Every nation, including the United States, protects certain markets to some degree. Although Honda, Toyota and other foreign auto manufacturers have plants located in the United States and employ American workers,(which is good and I wholeheartedly support this) the profits go back to Japan. As I stated in my original post and you mentioned in your rebuttal to me, I agree that many foreign products are superior to American products in terms of price and quality especially the latter. The United States has to improve on an educational level too. I've always believed that quality is more important than quantity. Finally, you seem to surmise a world with open borders. This may happen but I don't agree with any of it. I believe in independent nation states with their own forms of government and constitutions. Countries are more than just economic markets.
posted by
WavyDavy
on July 28, 2007 at 10:29 AM
| link to this | reply