Go to Religion in the Modern World
- Add a comment
- Go to Discriminating against muslims? - what about realities?
Some time ago I posted an article here, Gome...
That addresses exactly your point: War and Religion: Islam’s Embrace of Violence . It's worth reading in the context of your post and my comment. The last two lines of this article read:
It is time for Muslims of good will to change their system. Christians did it. Muslims must do it as well. Muslim clerics of all Islamic persuasions must renounce violence. Jihad must become a thing of the past.
The bottom line is that if Islam won't change itself, eventually we will have to. There is no doubt in my mind how such a Holy War will end.
I hope it doesn't come to that...
posted by
arGee
on April 26, 2007 at 5:34 PM
| link to this | reply
arGee - that's incredible and even moreso that it took place within a
free democratic country.
I know of no other religion anywhere on Earth where this would have happened either. Over the years I have attempted to curtail my prejudices against Islam, convincing myself that my limited exposure to an Islamic culture in a 5 day visit to Tehran 30 years ago was too small of a sampling to judge an entire religious culture by. Where this thinking has some validity there are also some glaring realities pertaining to Islam that cannot be overlooked. We have a young Muslim lady in Canada who is currently on a speaking engagement tour to all mosques and Islamic community centers that will allow her to speak (some won't because she is female). Her message is one of denouncing terrorism and reclaiming Islam from the extremists. She is concerned for her personal safety and has had very similar experiences to what you describe. This treatment is primarily from Canadian and US citizens who happen to be Muslims. Many of which have been given directives to harrass her from non resident religious leaders. Am I the only one who sees a few dozen warning flags here?
posted by
gomedome
on April 26, 2007 at 9:37 AM
| link to this | reply
This happened to me a few years ago, Gome...
I was the CEO of a large editing agency. I advertized on the back page of the magazine Publisher's Digest (I had the entire page). When the Ayotolla Khomeni put out the death sentence on Salmon Rushdie, I dedicated my ad page to a condemnation of the Ayotolla, basically accusing him of eating with his left hand (!).
I was picketed by Muslim students from a local university – in fact, the local Police Chief called me in and instructed me to arm myself with a sawed-off shotgun. He actually assisted me in obtaining one quickly. I remained personally armed for several years, as I would receive telephone death threats nearly every month. They followed me to Los Angeles, Pennsylvania, and back to LA. It is only in the last couple of years (nearly 20 years later) that I finally don't hear from them every month.
I know of no other religion anywhere on Earth where this would have happened.
posted by
arGee
on April 26, 2007 at 8:00 AM
| link to this | reply
Tonyzonit - again I do not disagree with what you are saying for the most
part, except possibly your suggestion that religion is a secondary factor.
If religious beliefs were not as important as I suggest they are, a number of the grievances you outline would not be as pronounced. The existence of Israel and foreign troops on Saudi soil as examples, would not be the flashpoints of anger that they are. Nor would the tactics used to fight us be as extreme, suicide bombings for example can only be a reality if someone is completely brainwashed by irrational religious constructs.
posted by
gomedome
on April 23, 2007 at 12:48 PM
| link to this | reply
afzal50 - I have not said any of these things nor do I deny these realities
I only suggest that it is in the best interests of the general Muslim populace to isolate themselves from the extremists. All of the other things you touch on, though true, are irrelevent to the reality of how the current world political climate affects those of us who have never had a hand in these things. I'm not attempting to justify the prejudices that are now beginning to permeate the consciousness of non Muslim populaces, I'm merely attempting to discuss this inevitable outcome realistically. It is not only inevitable, it is already a reality. American foreign policy and the policies of the world's powers before them, may well have fostered the current situation but like countless millions of other people on this planet, I'll be damned if I'm going to blame only the Americans. Irrational religious constructs play as big a role in the current mess as any other factor.
posted by
gomedome
on April 23, 2007 at 12:11 PM
| link to this | reply
Gome - I don't think it would continue IF the Muslims didn't hold
economic and political grievances. Yes, some of them are decades old - some centuries old. What about the crusades? They still call western (especially Christian) interventionists in the Middle East 'crusaders'! But the main reason large swathes of the Muslim population still hold enough of a grievance against the west TODAY and bring these things up, is because of how the west still behaves TODAY. Like I said before, I believe that the religious element is secondary. The real irritants to the Muslim world are probably two main things - the presence, only since 1947/48, of Israel, backed by the USA, and the displacement of the former land occupants, and - the aggressive foreign policy mainly of the USA but also some allies such as Britain, in taking military action to preserve suitable (to them, if not to the locals) regimes that ensure a ready flow of oil. Other factors are US troops in and around Saudi Arabia, and lately, of course, the heavy presence in Iraq. It is these policies that are the root cause of the extremism. It hasn't come out of a void. Extremism has existed in the Wahhabi teachings in Arabia for centuries, but it is only sparked into mass popularity by the depression and anger caused by what appear to be arrogant and bullying behaviour by the west. The west has its fair share of religious extremism, too. if there were regular concerted and successful attacks on the west, you can be sure that these offshoots of the peaceful religion that is Christianity would see huge growth in their followers. Anyway, my main aim was to counter suggestions that Muslims are more violent than Christians or atheists or anyone else. I don't think that is true - not if they are genuine (rather than nominal) Muslims, anyway. I'll stop ranting now and give you a break!
posted by
Antonionioni
on April 23, 2007 at 11:48 AM
| link to this | reply
Sunnybeach7 - you've hit on a really good point
Not speaking of India specifically, there are regions in the world that are governed by what we would refer to as armed gangs, mafia meets the Crips in a different form. Many governments are also much more predatory towards their populaces than ours and many are far more corrupt. There are also a number of governments such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia that are simply "playing" us. As long as the facade of cooperation is maintained, the ongoing threat of terrorism, coupled with our inability to deal with it, keeps these people in power as long as they pretend to be helping us. No one can convince me that a greater will from some of our so called allies would not produce greater results.
posted by
gomedome
on April 23, 2007 at 11:45 AM
| link to this | reply
Gome,
Do you mean to say that the Muslims should feel the same way because of the atrocities committed by George W. Bush in complete violation of all norms .We don't blame or caste doubts over the peace loving nature of the Christians around the world . G.W. Bush is still carrying on his war against terrorism without ever giving respite to his foolishness .
Is it not true that these same terrorist are the frankestien created by the big brother to serve its end in the middle east . Do you deny that Osama was trained by American forces , do you deny that Saddam Husain was American stoogie working for America in middle east . Why blame general Muslims for potlical ends .
All these war and terror games are played by politician and mercineries to achieve their evil designs . I don't think general Muslims are worried about all this game . The general Muslims know very well that all those who were working for America till recently have split up to raise their ugly heads against their God father America. Good post .
posted by
afzal50
on April 23, 2007 at 11:44 AM
| link to this | reply
Gome
I don't know of Salmon Rushdie, or some of these other things of which you have stated.
I don't know why there are those that venture out from what is supposed to be a peaceful religion, other than to say that they are simply crazy. You would have to be to engage in willfull suicide.
I don't know a lot, and am probably not the best one to confront these kinds of questions. From what Afzal has told me, the government in India is not ideal. So much goes on there that would never be allowed to happen and be gotten away with here. Maybe that is one reason for the people to fear?
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on April 23, 2007 at 11:29 AM
| link to this | reply
Tonyzonit - all of what you say is true - the western powers are far from
innocent.
The main difference however in our transgressions are that as misguided as some of them may have been or continue to be, religion nor religious goals were not the core motivating elements. Understanding the justifications used by a self declared foe certainly has relevance if there was any possibility of placating them or satisfying their demands but I don't think reaching mutual understanding is possible. There are far too many factors influencing the numerous conflicts within the muslim world. From ideological differences to sectarian hatred and rivalries amongst themselves, to some wanting the entire world to become muslims.
You mention the placement of the Shaw of Iran in the 50's as an example of an underlying reason for some of the acrimony levied towards the western governments . . . how many grudges do you yourself hold that emanate from the 50's? The incident you describe took place a year before I was born, I would have to be taught how to harbor hatred for something so far back in history. There is no doubt that simple human shortcomings fuel most conflicts but this is a little different in one glaring regard. If we were to correct every single perceived foreign policy transgression we are accused of perpetrating against all of the countries where the terrorists hail from, they would still proliferate the conflict. Simply because the religious ideological element would remain.
posted by
gomedome
on April 23, 2007 at 8:27 AM
| link to this | reply
Gome - Muslims are indeed very tenacious and always have been.
Afganistan, for example, has never been properly subdued, and this continues. Although they are palpably an 'enemy' to each other and to the west, I do not, however, believe that, viewed dispassionately, they are more warlike than the west. The two are about the same. It would require a long essay to put this argument fully, but some indications of the west's equal guilt? Our forced regime change in Iran that put the Shah on the throne (around 1953). Our intervention in Suez, 1956. Interventions in other countries - Chile, Brazil, Vietnam, Guatemala, Nicaragua. The British Empire. The American manifest destiny. Both world wars. The nuclear bomb. Star wars. Economic domination and double-standards (free trade, as long as it benefits us; subsidies if it doesn't). The Arabs' main 'crime' is being annoyed with its treatment at the hands of the west (aside from its internecine squabbles, and I've shown that we've had numerous equivalent squabbles of our own) and having the guts and ingenuity to do something about it. Yes, they have killed many in callous circumstances. But so has the west, for longer, on a larger scale, simply because we have more money and better weapons. I have deliberately not gone into the Islamic arguments because I believe that, on both sides, religion is used to justify what are really racial battles for economic and territorial superiority on a local (and ultimately global) scale. this is what the reality has always been - a fight for the best land and the riches of the world by one group against another. This can even take place among co-religionists, proving that the religion isn't the 'prime mover' of the conflicts, but socio-ethnic rivalry.
posted by
Antonionioni
on April 23, 2007 at 7:32 AM
| link to this | reply
Kripayne - I agree completely - no other religion in the world has
historically been the compelling force in so much conflict.
Even when attempts are made to draw parralels to the dark days of Christianity, the comparisons fall short. That was then, this is now, this is the modern age where one religious group simply refuses to become modern, rejecting their responsibility to evolve with the rest of the world. From ongoing sectarian conflict within their own countries, to war between neighbouring countries, to promoting conflict as a means of expansion, they are continually at war. Those attempting to depict Islam as a religion of peace have an impossible sell job on their hands. History demonstrates quite the opposite, Muslims have never lived in peace with their geographic neighbours and probably never will.
The only possibility I see for the continued hostilities perpetrated by Islamic fringe elements towards the west to subside; is that inevitably Islam will be engaged in a regional war between the Shi'ite and Sunni. Many of the warring parties, including those who have become our self declared foe, will be preoccupied with killing each other.
posted by
gomedome
on April 23, 2007 at 6:51 AM
| link to this | reply
The sad fact is that Islam has often, if not consistently, been steeped in violence since Muhammad. And although there may be many peace loving Muslims out there, it is not hard to come away with a message of violence from the Koran (I do own a copy). Look around the world where there is conflict and violence, Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and Islam is involved in over half the major engagements. And in polls in places such as the UK it has been shown that anywhere from 20-30% of Muslims think that violence is an appropriate action in acts such as the subway bombings. While most religions tend to create an "us and them" complex, quite clearly Islam is the most violent in today's world when it comes to this.
posted by
Kripayne
on April 23, 2007 at 12:39 AM
| link to this | reply