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Nautikos
I understand the point you have made.
Not being a Biblical student however, I can't debate the issue of whether the Bible condones violence or not. In the Old Testament it certainly talked the talk.
Anyway, I think I'll do more reading than making anymore lengthy comments because I am way in over my head here as a student and hate to see folks getting upset over religion, any religion.
I truly have found a reason to embrace atheism, thank God. It let's me off the hook of joining in to the debate.-;)
posted by
WileyJohn
on April 25, 2007 at 7:36 PM
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Whit B
my (admittedly not very recent) reading of the NT doesn't suggest there is anything! But I am always willing to accept sound evidence to the contrary..
posted by
Nautikos
on April 24, 2007 at 2:11 PM
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Sorry.
I knew that was coming! There not being anything provoking criminality in the NT...
posted by
Tuscaloosa
on April 24, 2007 at 1:55 PM
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Whit B
am I sure about
what?
posted by
Nautikos
on April 24, 2007 at 1:49 PM
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Are you sure about that?
Eye for an eye?
posted by
Tuscaloosa
on April 24, 2007 at 1:08 PM
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Wiley, ole buddy
thanks again for your extensive comment. I completely understand your decision to stay out of this debate, although it really isn't one, lol. Let me just repeat what I have said before: I certainly do not condemn all Muslims in general. Nor do I condemn Islam in general. All I am saying is that there are sections in the Koran which demand, and are used by certain Muslims to justify, what most of us regard as criminal actions...
And, by comparison, there's nothing in the NT to justify any kind of criminal act whatsoever...
This basic difference strikes me as important and significant. There is no terror in the world today that justifies itself by referring to the NT. But there is terror in the world today that justifies itself by referring to the Koran. That terror may not be Islamic terror, but it is Islamist terror...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 21, 2007 at 5:57 PM
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Nautikos
Well now I thought I'd pop in and catch up on my reading and what do I find?LOL
Howsomever, in not reading about religion and those who oppose it much anymore. I revert my thoughts back to my days in the military when we were told not to discuss religion or politics.
Now I know why I shouldn't, because at age 71 I can't handle my own emotions of it all, and as a younger man could possibly have seen acts of murder committed in the name of one God or another.
The fact is, some screwed up Muslims committed a terrible act, but I do think that act cannot be attributed to all Muslim's or Islam in general.
It did seem to me that it is kind and prudent to listen at least to what any Muslim was trying to convey with their comments. Of course some responded with emotion and anger and I understand that, and me being me, felt I owed an apology for comments I had made that did not reflect my true feelings about mankind in general.
I understand their comments because when I am angry and emotional about my faith,I may respond in like manner and I recognized that about myself.
So my friend Naut, I just had to leave you a comment here again, for that simple reason, you are are my friend, and I'm not afraid of the subject or commentary participants.
O.K Too long winded I know, but now I wish you'd do one on Christianity/Catholicism, and just for historical purposes I will read that, and maybe Muslim's would see that as even handed and just and respond calmly.
I express my religion, which includes atheists or agnostics,-;) is more like Kahlil Gibran said it.
"I love you my brother, whoever you are
Whether you worship in your church, kneel in your temple
or pray in your mosque.
You and I are all children of one faith, for the divers paths
of religion are fingers of the loving hand of one Supreme Being
a Hand extended to all, offering completeness of spirit to all, eager to receive all."
posted by
WileyJohn
on April 21, 2007 at 4:07 PM
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Justi
Thanks! Well, it wasn't exactly D-day, in fact I find this sort of thing rather amusing. In this case it was simply what some (!) Muslims think of as a 'debate'...
I emphasize the 'some' since I have a few Muslim acquaintances with whom one can discuss things in a completely civilized and normal way. Mind you, one of them eats bacon and eggs, and would probably be considered a 'takfir' (heretic) by a other Muslims...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 21, 2007 at 4:51 AM
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Nautikos
Oh you poor dear. I did not know you were in a raging battle too. I have been tarred and feathered. I don't like these baby chick yellow feathers. Some colorful ones would have been much better. It is strange to me how they talk peace and get all over your case when you don't kiss the ground before them. Go on Mr Naughty I see Colebin's got your back.
posted by
Justi
on April 20, 2007 at 4:44 PM
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Saul
Thanks for your extensive comment. I agree with you completely, and I have stressed that my concern is mainly with the Islamist or Jihadist form of fascism. Having said that, the lines do get blurred. In a survey done in Britain in 2006,
"Muslims widely state that Shariah should reign in Britain. Forty percent approve of Shariah being applied in predominantly Muslim areas, and 61% want Shariah courts to settle civil cases among Muslims. All of 58% want those who criticize or insult Islam to face criminal prosecution. Schools should be prohibited from banning female pupils from wearing the hijab, say 55%, while 88% insist that schools and work places should accommodate Muslim prayer times."
Of course, few of these people will become terrorists. But there seems to be a widespread view that the rest of society should accommodate itself to their demands, and than there is often an implied 'or else'...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 19, 2007 at 12:58 PM
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Troosha
what can I do to clear up the confusion?
posted by
Nautikos
on April 19, 2007 at 11:47 AM
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It is not the growth of Islam that bothers me half as bad as the rapid
expansion of extremist or radical Islam, such as practiced by the followers of al Qutb and those following the Wahhabist tradition. This extremely intolerant line of an already intolerant religion is state-sanctioned by Saudi Arabia and taught in madrassas all over the Middle East, Africa, Southeast Asia, Oceania, and parts of Europe and the Americas as well. These extremist zealots, indoctrinated now at very young ages for a few generations, are the new voices and soldiers of radical Islam. I shudder to think what an entire world encased in their glorious umma would be like -- intolerant, oppressive, suppressive, bleak, restrictive. No true person with an inkling of what personal freedom is could want anything akin to it. Yet, this is the aim of the jihadist.
Think this example: take the most oppressive and restrictive sect of fundamentalist Christianity you can think of, those sects that dictate everything you do, say, read, wear, watch. For most of us, this is almost unbearable to even contemplate. Add Mohammed and Hammurabi's Code. No deviation or alteration is allowed. Everything apostate must be destroyed. Forever. Then you have the extremism of the Wahhabists.
Great post, my friend. People need to begin to understand that World War III was caused by the colonialist/imperialist partitioning of the Middle East and really was declared when Israel was made a state. Everything afterward (simplistically speaking, of course) has just been a buildup, a constant guerilla action if you will, between Muslims and everyone else -- Christians, governments, Buddhists, animists, other less fundamentalist Muslims, anything considered apostate, kaffir, infidel...
posted by
saul_relative
on April 19, 2007 at 9:59 AM
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Naut
OK.... now I'm totally confused.
posted by
Troosha
on April 19, 2007 at 9:05 AM
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Re: Coalbin
nothing but the best from Naughty-cuss...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 6:48 PM
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Coalbin?????? LOLOLOLOLOL.......
Well, that's a lot better than the "Corby" I been called here.........
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 18, 2007 at 5:05 PM
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Coalbin
whaddaya mean 'getting closer'??? We're on top of it!
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 4:48 PM
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Naughty-Cuss
It apears that we are getting closer to discovering the original location of the "Tower of Babble"....
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 18, 2007 at 4:45 PM
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proc
I remember, as a kid I was afraid of the dark at the bottom of the basement stairs - but I forced myself to go down anyway, and I learned not to be afraid...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 3:35 PM
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I have to say:you are a brave man venturing into dark and dangerous
terrortory.....
posted by
proc
on April 18, 2007 at 1:40 PM
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Offy
screamed at? You're witnessing a Muslim
debate...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 11:19 AM
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THIS IS MY COMMENT TO NEAUTIKUS ..WATCH HOW HE USE WHAT HE WANT FROM MY WORDS TO SERVE HIS BAD GOALS
SEE IN THE BLACK COLOR
GOD IS LOVE ....IN KORAN GOD HAS 99 NAMES FROM IT THE MERCIFUL......CLEMENT ...............THE PEACE................THE MOST GRACIOUS..THE FORGIVER.. THE GREAT AND WHO IS GREATER MORE THAN HIM ...HOW MUCH OUR SINS WILL BE WHEN WE ASK HIS MERCY.. HE WILL REMIT our MISTAKES ......
BUT WE ARE THE HUMAN BEING who WILL NEVER REMIT EACH OTHERS LITTLE MISTAKES
EACH SURAH IN KORAN STARTS BY ....IN NAME OF GOD THE GRACIOUS THE MERCIFUL...
YOU ARE DENYING GOD ANGER FROM US THE HUMAN BEING WHO DIDN'T THANKS HIM FOR HIS GRACES AND FOR LITTLE THINGS YOU WILL BE ANGRY FROM YOUR BROTHERS ..THIS TALK FOR THE BELIEVER IF THERE IS ANY TRUE BELIEVER HERE ..WHEN I REMEMBER THESE NAMES SOME PEACE OCCUPY MY HEART ...THE FORGIVENESS FILLED MY SOUL ...I WISH IF ALL WILL REMEMBER THESE NAMES I WISH YOUR WAY WILL BE LIGHTED BY HIS LIGHT AND INSTEAD OF SPREADING MISUNDERSTANDING TO TRY TO SPREAD LITTLE LOVE LITTLE UNDERSTANDING, AS WHO IS DOING THE WARS ARE THE GOVERNMENTS AND WHO SUFFER ARE THE HUMAN BEING AND THE CHILDREN .....
I WISH YOU TO READ THE KORAN AGAIN AND TO TRY TO FIND THE REAL TRUTH THERE
WHO CREATE YOU ..HOW MUCH YOU WILL REACH HOW MUCH YOU READ WITH OUT BELIEVING THAT THERE IS A CREATOR FOR THIS UNIVERSE FOR THE SKIES FOR THE BEINGS ..YOU WILL STAY NOTHING AND NOTHING IN COMPARE TO GOD ABILITY ...........
THE TERRORISM WHICH HAPPENED THESE DAYS IS DUE TO THE CIVILIZED WORLD IF HE IS REALLY CIVILIZED WHICH DEALS VERY UNFAIRLY TOWARD THE MIDDLE EAST ..DUE TO THE PRESSURE WHICH
IS INCREASING DAY BY DAY DUE TO THE INTERFERENCE IN THE WELL OF THE ARABIC AND MUSLIMS NATION ..BE FAIR.... LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE TO THEIR DEMANDS AS YOU CLAIM THAT YOU APPLY DEMOCRACY BUT WHEN WE ASK THE DEMOCRACY YOU DENY IT FOR US ..AMERICA WANT THE DEMOCRACY ACCORDING TO IT'S WISH NOT THE ARABIC PEOPLE WISH ......WHY WE MENTION THAT BECAUSE ALL THE PROBLEMS ARE DUE TO POLITICS ..AWAKE GOOD PEOPLE.... AMERICAN PEOPLE AND LISTEN TO OTHER PARTS DEMANDS ..LISTEN TO OTHER PARTS MEDIA AND NOT ONLY TO YOUR MEDIA WHICH SERVE AND SUPPORT ONLY SOME PARTS
YOUR TAXES ARE USED FOR THE MISSILES WHICH USED TO KILL PALESTINIAN CHILDREN AND WOMEN TO DESTROY THEIR HOMES .....THEIR PLANES ARE YOUR PLANES ..SAY NO FOR THE SAKE OF THE HUMANITY ..STOP PAYING THE PRICE FOR HITLER CRIMES ...STOP BEING USED BY THIS AND THAT .....WHEN YOU DO FRIENDS YOU WIN YOUR SELF YOU WIN OTHERS WHO REALLY DO NOT HAVE HATE TOWARD YOU THE PEOPLE BUT SURE HE HAS HATE TOWARD YOUR GOVERMENT WHICH IS UNDER CONTROL OF THE JEW IN AMERICA ...
AND FOR 11SEPTEMBER IT IS JUST VERY FUNNY TO CLAIM THAT YOUR INTELLIENTS WERE NOT AWARE OF IT.... IT IS VERY SHAMEFULL FOR THEM ..11TH OF SEPTEMBER SERVE THE BAD GOALS FOR MANY BUT NOT MUSLIMS
Posted by on April 14, 2007 at 12:35 PM (permalink) Reply to this comment
posted by
drohan254
on April 18, 2007 at 11:19 AM
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droolah
thanks for the clicks...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 11:15 AM
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THIRD ONE FROM NEAUTIKUS
I am not Jewish. But my final word will be the word of a people who have suffered horribly in the 20th century, and who are under the gravest threat from this century’s Islamo-fascism.
Shalom
posted by
drohan254
on April 18, 2007 at 11:10 AM
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SECOND ONE FROM NEAUT
For now just one categorical (and serious) statement: there is only one significant form of terrorism today, namely Islamist terrorism.
posted by
drohan254
on April 18, 2007 at 11:06 AM
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this is your discrimination let us see your good ideas and logic talk in which you are waiting and claiming that you are reay for discussion by the i did not see your comment regarding that she made her self as ajoke but to me you really are very very silly and iam feeling so much stupidity in wasting myTIME WITH YOU...THIS IS YOUR FIRST COMMENT SO WHO DIDNOT SEE LET THEM DO
The problem is that I don't like an Islamic world, and I can guarantee you that you won't either...
And if the Big Guy is still in charge, I wonder whose side he is on...
Posted by on April 13, 2007 at 3:57 AM (permalink) Reply to this comment
..but let us see who is the JOKE AND the funny
posted by
drohan254
on April 18, 2007 at 11:04 AM
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Oh dear Naut
I stopped in only to see you are once again being screamed at (hate when that happens) but alas you must know you have written a very good series and have taught us much through it.So I am going to leave you with this darlin
You and Corbin have got to stop having so much fun!!! ROFL...
posted by
Offy
on April 18, 2007 at 7:39 AM
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what about you neautikus you were writing droolah i don't know what you meant ....
FOR ALL WE ARE AGAINST SEPTEMBER SO DON'T BE HAPPY MUCH THAT WE ARE WITH
AND I GUESS ...I THINK THAT IT IS WASTING OF THE TIME TO ARGUE YOU BECAUSE YOU WILL NEVER HEAR AND LISTEN OR SEE THE REAL TRUTH I SAID TO YOU ALL THE PROBLEMS ARE DUE TO POLITICS IS IT CLEAR SO WHAT I WILL NOW I WILL JUST IGNORE ALL OF YOU MY LOVELY DEAR FUNNY FRIENDS AND I WILL LEAVE YOU TO CREATE HATE BUT OF COURSE AS AGREED AND VERY STRONG LADY BY THE WAY IAM VERY BEAUTIFUL VERY LOVABLE VERY SENSITIVE AND FOR LITTLE THINGS I WEEP WHY IAM SAYING THIS TO GIVE YOU A CLEAR PICTURE MAY BE NEAUTIKUS YOU WANT TO USE THESE WORDS ALSO AND ACCORDING TO YOUR WISH ..SO WHAT I WAS SAYING I WILL LEAVE THE HATE INVENTION FOR YOU WITH COPY RIGHT I MEAN YOU CREATE HATE BUT THERE ON THE OTHER SIDE AS A LOVELY LADY I WILL CREATE LOVE SO LET US SEE WHO WILL WIN THE LOVE OR THE HATE ...I'M IN PEACE NOW ...........BE YOU ALSO SHADOW DEEPLY ROOTED IN THE LANDS NO ONE SHAKES US
ABLE ALWAYS TO STAND IN THE FACE OF A STORMY SAND
WE ARE THE PAIN RELIEVERS
HAPPINESS BUILDERS
SECRET KEEPERS
AND WHEN EVERY BODY LEAVES
YOU WILL FIND US
READY TO GIVE
READY TO CARE
ERADICATE SCARY NIGHT WITH NIGHT MARE
LIKE THE DOVES WILL CARRY YOU BACK TO HOME ..THIS IS ME FOR MUSLIM JEW .CHRISTIAN AND ANY HUMAN BEING WE BEHAVE NICELY REGARDLESS ETHNICITY
RELIGION AND RACE ..........................WITH LOVE AND PEACE WHICH IS I DON'T KNOW FROM WHERE IT IS COMING JUST SUDDENLY IT IS FILLING MY HEART BECAUSE NY HEART IS PURE NOT LIKE SOME ..I PRAY FOR THEM TO BE SAME
posted by
drohan254
on April 18, 2007 at 7:25 AM
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TAPS
well, you almost make me feel guilty, but not quite! I didn't force anyone to come in here and make a fool of herself...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 7:15 AM
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Corbin
LOL! I wondered how long it would take before someone came up with that - well, you've done it!
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 7:13 AM
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gome
thank you for your extensive, articulate and thoughtful comment! It's like a breath of fresh air!
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 7:11 AM
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Nautikos
I'm not really interested in becoming involved in any blog wars, but you do have interesting opinions expressed on your well-written posts. I'm not sure though that its "kosher" to have so much fun at someone else's expense.
posted by
TAPS.
on April 18, 2007 at 7:00 AM
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You know........
Sometimes you can be such a "Naughty-cuss"....ROTFLMAO! We have a new name!!!
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 18, 2007 at 6:55 AM
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Nautikos - not speaking of anyone specifically, I have found that the
perceptions as found in the comment you are responding to, are promoted with alarming frequency.
We should all be alarmed when people in this world speak of the actions of 911 in a sympathetic manner towards the perpetrators, regardless as to what degree. Islam is the one (and only) old world religion that is in fact demonstrating true growth in its number of adherents. Despite what is implied in the comment you are responding to however, it is not growing due to conversion to the religion in first world countries. Certainly not by Americans or any country's citizens in the western hemisphere. The primary mechanisms for its growth are as you have alluded to; in birthrates and further expansion into third world countries. Immigration to first world countries fosters an entirely different set of problems, the bad people come with the good, that is if we consider those who preach and promote treason and social upheaval in their adopted countries as bad people.
Where we lament the communal and societal pressures, to conform or be ostracized, that we are subjected to in our own predominantly Christian societies and which vary in degree from subtle to blatant, communal pressure in muslim societies is exponentially greater. I have to completely disagree with the suggestion that there is "not a damn thing" we can do about it. As with all philosophies that rely heavily on indoctrination and social pressure to sell an ancient dogma, education is the key. That, and we have to wake up and realize that a segment of the earth's populace which has historically never been able to live in peace with any differing religious philosophies is collectively (though not unanimously) attempting to impose its will upon us.
posted by
gomedome
on April 18, 2007 at 6:54 AM
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Corbin
I want a better horse! That one looks kind of goofy...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 6:52 AM
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LOL...Nautikos.........The veritable Crusader
"Knightus Templarus"?????
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 18, 2007 at 6:50 AM
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Corbin
ROTFLMAO! I'm having fun!
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 6:45 AM
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droolah
after all this time we've been together you still can't remember my name, tsk, tsk...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 6:43 AM
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Foliage
thanks dear! There are strange things coming out from under mossy rocks...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 6:38 AM
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Here we go again.......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 18, 2007 at 6:36 AM
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Pat
thanks for the compliment! Sometimes I have the impression I
am in Mossyrock...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 6:34 AM
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next comment ..my appreciation to my dear shadow you are very great my dear ..you make mr neuticus feel very angery and to express his hiden things but still we are able to discuss but mr neut it seem that there is an idea which you don't want to change ...and your blind fellowers ..friends between the words which you think it is hate there is love and we are ready to start to change are you able to do same as us ....are you we are love islam is love are you able to create love ..inspite of your hatred we are ready to forgive are you ready ..sure i don't think but i wish and i wish from all to read the full comments and see between lines
now neutikus you used my word about jew because
iam sorry this show your weakness as you are hiding behind them but for
me i will not hide behind any body iam very strong when iam alone iam very strong with my faith in my issues because i know that itis the truth
posted by
drohan254
on April 18, 2007 at 6:32 AM
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i guess neutikus that this mainly for me itis very strange that now you got up
and the anger is very clear here by the waty i didnot read all of your post i will respond point by point and as i said to you i wrote apost about islam and i will challange you in a logical discussion ...but it is very clear that you are jew with my respect for jew the good one who are not creating stupid hate ..your games are very clear especially at the end oif your post which you tried to be cevelised in it and at the end you said that only you see the islamist terrorism stop your playing with the words and i didnot say that the terrorism who hate your government but iam saying to you every human being will hate your government to be continue
posted by
drohan254
on April 18, 2007 at 6:15 AM
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Naut......
You have reinforced my perception of you.......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 18, 2007 at 5:38 AM
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Naut
I read this last night and had to come back. You're teaching me so many things, and I just want to say thank you. --Joy!Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 18, 2007 at 5:32 AM
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Oops -- I forgot my comment...
Nice work on the series and in general. I like the way you think. :)
posted by
Pat_B
on April 18, 2007 at 5:32 AM
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We used to have a saying back in Mossyrock...
The more you stir sh*t the worse it stinks. Which is why I finally learned to keep my well-informed, insightful and absolutely correct opinions to myself 90% of the time.
posted by
Pat_B
on April 18, 2007 at 5:30 AM
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Enigmatic
I think I have my own Guardian Angels, which, for a pagan, is no mean feat, lol. Mind you, occasionally they fall asleep on the job...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 5:03 AM
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Justi
thanks. I think a lot of people need to have their glasses checked...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 18, 2007 at 4:58 AM
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I went back and read some of that commentary.
I think you pretty much have game, set, and match.
posted by
strat
on April 17, 2007 at 7:54 PM
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nautikos
I am surprised that you did not get any intelligent replies from Muslims........then again.....
posted by
TIMMYTALES
on April 17, 2007 at 7:48 PM
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Nautikos
I must be getting some kind of protection from one of my three patron saints - Joseph, Francis , and, yes, Daniel - the saint who was thrown into the lion's den, I believe somewhere in Persia - the lions walked up to him, gave him a few sniffs, probably a few licks as well, then went and laid back down - which was a beautiful way for them to flip the bird to the King of Persia, or whoever the hell it was who had Daniel thrown in! I've only gotten one criticism, and that was from the ever-popular "Xeno-x,"(his broken-record, "You're a paranoid racist," charge). I did not respond to him, and, like an attention-starved child, he went elsewhere, and hasn't bothered me since!
posted by
Enigmatic68
on April 17, 2007 at 7:48 PM
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Nautikos
This says it. Thank you so much for this post. I may do what you did for Corbin.... Everybody, at least those several who are giving me critical hell right now should read this. However, I expect they will read it with their glasses instead of fair glasses. Very Good.
posted by
Justi
on April 17, 2007 at 5:18 PM
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