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Foliage
He also accpeted the NT, apart from the divinity of Christ thuing, of course. And he accepted all that as he
understood it, and his nderstanding was limited!
posted by
Nautikos
on April 29, 2007 at 2:30 PM
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Foliage
Well, Mohammed didn't
try to be tribal, he just
was! He was an Arab who understood his tribal world, and that was it!
posted by
Nautikos
on April 29, 2007 at 2:28 PM
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Naut: Part III
Oh, Okay. So The Bible was okay with Mohammed as the past voice of God and he wrote down all the new things God told him. Okay. Tribal......OT was and The Koran still is. So then, Mohammed didn't accept the NT and rewrote (according to God's word) to take it back to OT kind of stuff? --Joy!Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 29, 2007 at 2:17 PM
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Foliage
Mohammed says quite clearly that the God he is talking about is the God of the Bible. He accepts the God of the Bible, but he is also saying that God is now giving him the latest version of his will. For Muslims, the Koran is God's final word.
The OT is very tribal, concerned with this world! The NT is not, which is its strength, and in many ways it's beauty. It's not tribal in part because it isn't really concerned with this world, but with salvation form sin and the afterlife.
The Koran is very tribal again, hence is very much concerned with his world, and remains so to this day. It also speaks of salvation and an afterlife, but in very concrete and naive ways.
The God of the Koran only loves the faithful, i.e. Muslims.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 29, 2007 at 6:15 AM
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Naut
I'm in three here..... Forgive my ignorance as this is all new study to me. Allah is God. Mohammed, 'the true prophet' was a man in the flesh, like Jesus? The Old Testament had a fire and brimstone God and the New Testament presents a loving God. So somewhere between the two writings, something changed. What was it? While all along the Koran while told originally, verbally and then written stayed the same with regard to obedience and to Muslims this is their idea of Allah's love? Am I understanding correctly? --Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 28, 2007 at 7:21 AM
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Nautikos,
I apologize. I missed this post regarding the Islam God. I understand the story of Abraham & Sahrah and Ishmeal & Issac. I wonder if Mohammed was a rejected half brother. I will read on. Thank you.
posted by
roadscross
on March 21, 2007 at 4:50 PM
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Wiley
yes, I can see those things having an influence on one's point of view...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 11, 2007 at 8:17 PM
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OTA
I shall resist temptation, at least in this case...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 11, 2007 at 8:16 PM
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Offy
take your time...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 11, 2007 at 8:15 PM
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Corbin
hey, no problem, don't worry about it...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 11, 2007 at 8:14 PM
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Nautikos
Thanks for your comment to my comment.
"The reason would be the dreaded 'intervening variables', matters one would have to inspect in detail to get some clarity..."
In my case, alcoholism, need for psychotherapy to deal with issues surrounding Humane Vitae and so on, had different effect on me than most perhaps. Also, whatever my experiences with Catholicism. I still feel part of it rightly or wrongly.
I am interested in reading everything about religion and spirituality though, so I don't just dismiss other links of thinking. Thanks for writing my friend.
posted by
WileyJohn
on March 11, 2007 at 1:56 PM
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Naut
Like other have mentioned.. I don't have any knowledge of the Koran. This is really quite fascinating. I do hope you resist the temptation to stop or trivialize it as a spoof.. you have put a lot of work into this that is much appreciated.
posted by
Blue_feathers
on March 11, 2007 at 10:32 AM
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Naut
I have a lot of catching up to do...Need to go back and read 1 and 2...
posted by
Offy
on March 11, 2007 at 6:35 AM
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posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on March 11, 2007 at 6:31 AM
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Corbin
LOL! I'm not there yet! You're peeking behind the curtain...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 10, 2007 at 8:00 PM
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Enigmatic
thanks!
posted by
Nautikos
on March 10, 2007 at 7:59 PM
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Muslims are commanded to fight unbelievers until they are either dead, converted to Islam, or in a permanent state of subjugation under Muslim domination. Allowing people of other faiths to live and worship independently of Islamic rule is not an option.
The Qur'an: Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down.
Following his flirtation with preaching relative peace and tolerance at Mecca - a 13-year disaster that netted less than 100 followers (mostly friends and family) - Muhammad changed tactics during the last ten years of his life. Near the end, he summed things up for his followers by telling them that he had been commanded by Allah to fight unbelievers until they spoke the Shahada (profession of faith in Islam).
LINK
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on March 10, 2007 at 6:59 PM
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Very interesting
posted by
Enigmatic68
on March 10, 2007 at 6:28 PM
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TAPS
In principle you are absolutely correct - this could turn into a life-long quest. However, I have absolutely no intention of allowing that to happen. Quite apart from lack of time, I prefer other pursuits. All I want to do here is gain some basic insights and share them.
posted by
Nautikos
on March 10, 2007 at 11:47 AM
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Nautikos
I think you might have taken on a task that has no end--one of those things that the more you chew, the bigger it gets. I do hope that you will stick with it. Your comparisons are very interesting to me. I have had a lifetime of studying The Bible, but I've never read any of the Koran except for a quote here and there. It would be rather difficult for me to read the Koran with an open mind, the way that I would like for people to read the Bible. That is why I find it quite interesting for an adherent of neither to be making the comparisons.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 10, 2007 at 7:53 AM
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Corbin
thanks! I haven't read Bat Ye'or, nor have I ever read
any commentary on the Koran! This is completely new territory for me. But her characterization doesn't surprise me at all. As of now, If I were asked to describe the Koran in one word, I would say that it is a very
'angry' book.
posted by
Nautikos
on March 10, 2007 at 7:33 AM
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rich
thanks!
posted by
Nautikos
on March 10, 2007 at 7:24 AM
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Bhaskar
thanks for your comment, although I don't quite understand it. I know nothing about 'the universal aspects of Truth', nor am I looking for it. I am simply comparing texts which I do
not regard as divine revelation.
posted by
Nautikos
on March 10, 2007 at 7:23 AM
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interesting post.
posted by
richinstore
on March 10, 2007 at 6:53 AM
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Naut....
The Egyptian historian Bat Ye'or in her book,
Islam and Dhimmitude, provides the classic definition of subservience demanded of infidels by Moslems who rule over them:
"Behavior dictated by fear, pacifism when aggressed (against) rather than resistance, servility because of cowardice and vulnerability."
Islam offers infidels only two choices: death or subservience. People who chose the latter became
dhimmis. By accepting the status of
dhimmitude, Ye'or explains, "they obtained the security for their life, belongings and religion, but they had to accept a condition of inferiority, spoliation and humiliation."
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on March 10, 2007 at 5:56 AM
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Nautikos
I am enoying this and as we go along, we'll be able to see some more comparisons to get to the universal aspects of Truth. The Jewish God is an angry God. The Mohammadan Allah is the All-compassionate one. And it is because of this interpratation that Allaha's Compasion is higher than our sins, a lot of harm has been done to the world in the name of religion.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on March 10, 2007 at 3:56 AM
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Pat B
thanks for the thought! I'm afraid this stuff would require a lot more work, especially research, than I have time to devote to it.
posted by
Nautikos
on March 9, 2007 at 4:04 PM
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Talion
thank you for your comment! It's really appreciated! And I'll let you in on a little secret , which ceases to be one as of this moment: I am actually getting more interested in this whole business, the more I think about it.
But as I dip my toes into these waters, I can see more of an expanse of sea stretching to the horizon than I have time to fathom...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 9, 2007 at 4:01 PM
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Wiley,
as always, I greatly appreciate your comments. And I understand that your experiences with the Catholics were anything but pleasant. But then, I could show you people who had a very good experience indeed! What are we left with? It's a wash, obviously.
And because it is difficult to make general statements based on any individual's personal experience, I am trying to understand the underlying ideas. That's not to say that I dismiss the personal experience. But based on my, albeit limited, understanding (remember, I am an agnostic), I would say that you had your bad experience in spite of the fundamental Christian ethos, not because of it. The reason would be the dreaded 'intervening variables', matters one would have to inspect in detail to get some clarity...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 9, 2007 at 3:50 PM
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You've got quite a text going here. Very interesting.
I'm thinking it would be great to see your side-by-side comparison in one of the major news magazines. Have you thought of marketing it as non-fiction? :)
posted by
Pat_B
on March 9, 2007 at 3:41 PM
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Ariel
thanks for dropping in! And indeed, everyone claims to be 'righter' than the other guy, and we haven't even got to the really whacky parts yet...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 9, 2007 at 3:35 PM
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Nautikos
I wouldn't say this is
boring, but certainly more
academic than the standard Blogit fare. We need more posts like this if this site will ever live up to its claims. (But that's another tired subject.) My knowlede of the Bible is scant at best, my knowledge of the Koran nonexistent, so honestly, I wouldn't know if you hit the bullseye or missed the target completely. Still, your scholarly approach as opposed to a preachy, convert or be damned approach is worth the price of admission.
posted by
Talion
on March 9, 2007 at 12:02 PM
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Nautikos
Well for the first two or three sentences I had to have my nose pressed to the monitor with a magnifying glass. So, you know I take your writing more seriously than I take my own. lol
"The Koran is a work that exhorts man to submit to and obey its teachings. Faith is not induced by love, but in part by ‘rational’ argument, and in part by fear – the fear of retribution for not believing. “As for the unbelievers...Woeful punishment awaits them.”
So here is my escape, because the Koran and Catholicism converge here, it's all about the manipulation by fear.
posted by
WileyJohn
on March 9, 2007 at 11:58 AM
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Naut
Impressive! But there, what else does one expect from you?
It's funny how they're all right, isn't it ; and Islam more right than the others?
What I reckon is that they can't all be right ; but they can all be wrong!
It's really scary, isn' it? Hasn't anyone these days heard of the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust?
Like the guys said : the more things change, the more they stay as they are.
posted by
ariel70
on March 9, 2007 at 11:53 AM
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