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Sorry about the wonky sizing in that last-- no idea how that happened...
I think it must be a MIRACLE!
posted by
Ciel
on February 27, 2007 at 10:36 PM
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This is a case where we are at cross-usages... But we are both right,
according to Webster, if I understand what you're saying.
Main Entry: dog·ma 
Pronunciation: 'dog-m&, 'däg-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta /-m&-t&/
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem -- more at DECENT
1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious<a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religiousfaith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religiousattitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
The underlined italics are the definitions I am utilizing.
posted by
Ciel
on February 27, 2007 at 10:35 PM
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Ciel - you are now arguing a different and unrelated point
The original statement by you that I disagree with is here:
"Atheism is a religious dogma, even if it is based on the denial of any sort of god at all." You will not receive an argument from me about the degree of surety of some people that God does not exist, that is the epitome or the true definition of atheism. An atheist is certain that God does not exist. I've run into people that defend this perspective with vigor as well but surety of what one believes and obscure exceptions of small groups of atheists forming religions aside, these things do not constitute an identifyable atheist dogma. Buddhism would make your statement partially true but we both know that not all atheists are Buddhists.
posted by
gomedome
on February 27, 2007 at 2:06 PM
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I have known some atheists who certainly did circle their wagons
around a particular collection of beliefs based on the central belief that there is no God, not noway, not nohow, and they are just as adamant and unwilling to hear another perspective as the most die-hard fanatic of any theist religion.
Consider the followers of Madelene Murray O'Hare... She made a church of it, and though it was for the stated purpose of taking advantage of tax laws, it was, in fact, a church, with a lot of the trappings of churches-- the ones that enable the Govt to recognize it as a church and thereby eligible for tax deferments.
posted by
Ciel
on February 27, 2007 at 12:56 PM
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Enjoyed it Gomedome. Erudition and solid argument.
I love that idea of the atheist door-knockers. An interesting peek into a possible future.
posted by
_dave_says_ack_
on February 27, 2007 at 1:39 AM
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Gomedome, you always (almost) make me 
. Your first paragraph had me chuckling so heartily I didn't know if I could finish the post. It is just so true. Having grown up in the rural South; well, it is just so true. LOL. Baptists consider Presbyterianism a 'different religion'. (for example) LOL. I'm sorry: Who the fuck are these people? LOL. MoonSpirit 
posted by
syzygy
on February 26, 2007 at 10:55 PM
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rafika - thank you and thanx for stopping by
posted by
gomedome
on February 26, 2007 at 5:04 PM
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sharecropper - each person's situation is different, there is no need to
offend the beliefs of others simply to make a point.
I try not to do that in my personal circle but have come to point where I have endured all I am going to endure from those who would condemn others who believe differently. I try to look at the underlying intentions and sentiment of those who throw their religious beliefs in my face. If they are condemning me, I bop them over the head with their own nonsense, if they however are attempting to convey a sincere message the only way they know how, I attempt to reciprocate.
posted by
gomedome
on February 26, 2007 at 5:04 PM
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Ciel - I agree with most of what you are saying except one little thing:
"Atheism is a religious dogma...." Hardly, there may be some simularities in believing that God does not exist and religious beliefs that hold that a God does exist but atheism is not based on a dogma". Dogma specifically refers to: a collection of beliefs or system of religious laws.
posted by
gomedome
on February 26, 2007 at 4:59 PM
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when atheism rules sthe world
what can i say? i've never felt so 'understood.' now i don't have to say it, not that i could. on the other hand, forgive my lily livered soul. if i knew i were to die tomorrow i wouldn't be able to tell the folks how i really feel. they're so good so sweet so kind, they'd do anything for you. and have. i couldn't do it to them, tell them how i really feel. they wouldn't understand. they wouldn't like me any more.
posted by
sharecropper
on February 26, 2007 at 2:49 PM
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I think government should stay out of the question of religion altogether.
It would be just as obnoxious to have atheists running things--Atheism is a religious dogma, even if it is based on the denial of any sort of god at all.
Government should have nothing to say and should base none of its practices on religion. Morality should not be legislated beyond the minimum of what allows people to live side-by-side in some degree of well-being. Questions of what defines the beginning of human life, what days we should all have off from work, whether capitol punishment is part of a civilized society, etc, should be based on evidence made available through social sciences, biology, physics, etc.
What is ultimately right or moral should be respected as between an individual and their own relationship with the universe, whatever that may be, in terms of dogma or philosophy. What is right and wrong should not be confused with what is legal, or illegal. I would hope there would be some overlap there, but in questions such as evolution and abortion, the state is an inappropriate and incompetent arbiter.
So there.
posted by
Ciel
on February 26, 2007 at 2:43 PM
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Beautiful
Writing for the thinking person...
posted by
rafika
on February 26, 2007 at 2:02 PM
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Well, someone told me that God has a sense of humor, so I figured it's alright to make fun. ~ Jennifer
posted by
Jenasis
on February 26, 2007 at 12:19 PM
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SoloWriter - most times I have a little trouble following your comments but
this time I am completely lost.
posted by
gomedome
on February 26, 2007 at 11:48 AM
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MandaLee - I wish I could say that and mean it but the truth is that I do
not respect all people.
I am willing to treat all people with absolute equality and extend them their rights as human beings but some folks just don't deserve any kind of respect.
posted by
gomedome
on February 26, 2007 at 11:47 AM
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Pat_B - I believe that to be the reality as well
Suggesting that one set of beliefs or non beliefs would steer the world in the right direction all ends up being the same thing. The majority influences the perspectives of the minority.
posted by
gomedome
on February 26, 2007 at 11:45 AM
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If atheism were the norm, at least there'd be no wars over whose
imaginary friend was the best. No "my god can beat up your god" playground disputes. But I'm sure we'd find something else to pick on each other about.
posted by
Pat_B
on February 26, 2007 at 11:35 AM
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Alright, if Muslims have dogs, and Catholics have flowers, cardinals and cats, and Lutherans have cats, dogs and birds, and if Baptists have only fish (until they get caught), then what animals do Presbyterians have? Is their leader some sort of a terian? Terry cloth? Towel? Vegetarian President? Scottish Terrier?
posted by
Jenasis
on February 26, 2007 at 9:41 AM
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Some of my best friends are nonbelievers. I respect all people.
posted by
Amanda__
on February 26, 2007 at 9:35 AM
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