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Ciel--
you make some valid points. I guess it is really impossible to define morality (absolute or otherwise) outside of one's own culture--for I have no understanding of how they might be able to justify rape etc., and yet you are correct, some cultures do.
posted by
Julia.
on February 10, 2007 at 12:17 PM
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Julia, I am not intending to be merely argumentative,
but more like philosophically, digging into the question to make the discussion more meaningful. In fact, I think you and I share a lot of opinions in this area.
I think we might need to start by defining 'absolute.'
There are many moral judgments made on personal and societal levels, and the closer we get to individual definitions, the more precise and detailed the terms become. When I talk about 'absolute morality' I am talking about morality which applies to all, regardless of culture or personal opinion. Absolute morality is not a matter of any degree or circumstance. There is no defense, no mitigation possible.
If you tell me that killing is immoral, I have to ask, what about killing to save a life? What about accidental killing? Killing out of panic or ignorance? Killing as a society's attempt to protect itself from harm? Killing for revenge, as is considered moral in some societies? Is there any killing that could be moral? What kind of killing can legitimately be called absolutely immoral?
Rape is, like murder, considered a crime in every culture I know of, and I have studied this some-- but not every society defines rape the same way. To me, any sex without reasonable consent is immoral. But some societies applaud incest in certain circumstances, and condone forced sex within marriage, and forced marriage, for that matter, to legitimize sex. It is acceptible in some societies to commit rape, but immoral to be the victim of rape.
posted by
Ciel
on February 9, 2007 at 5:36 PM
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Ciel--
to answer your question, I think any action that does another person (or animal) harm would be absolutely immoral. It's hard for me to see things like rape, physical or mental torture, beatings, etc. as anything but immoral.
posted by
Julia.
on February 9, 2007 at 4:42 PM
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Thanks for the visit and comment, Justi!
posted by
Ciel
on February 9, 2007 at 2:44 PM
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Ciel
This was a well done piece. I am sure you have given this a lot of thought. I don't agree with you about absolutes. I will continue to read where you are going with this.
posted by
Justi
on February 9, 2007 at 12:38 PM
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What are absolute morals, then?
Julia and Talion, I appreciate your comments, and would really like to explore this further with you.
When I try to make a list of absolute morals, I find that most of them are really cultural values, though some are personally inarguable, non-negotiable. I feel some should be absolute, like those regarding the protection and well-being of children.
And what is the relatonship of morals to rights? I think everyone has moral rights, apart from legal or natural rights. But where legal rights have law to enforce them, and natural rights have nature, who or what enforces moral rights? I think that the God-aspect of the Universe does that-- I think most would agree with that, who believe in God or a God-aspect of the Universe, however they interpret that--but I also think many,many people are not willing to trust in that level of enforcement, and so attempt to enforce it with law and social power.
posted by
Ciel
on February 9, 2007 at 11:18 AM
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Ciel
There are few things that are absolutely right and absolutely wrong under all circumstances, in every situation. I agree any meaningful discussion about morality must eventually include the attempt to define it. However, the attempt to define what is "moral," and subsequently eradicate what isn't, is what usually leads to strife. What's immoral to one is simply different to another. When the ideals clash, who wins? Historically, the ones with the better weapons.
posted by
Talion
on February 9, 2007 at 10:31 AM
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Ciel--
I never really thought about it that way, and now that I have, I'm not sure if I agree with you or not. I've always seen certain morals as absolute...but perhaps there is more gray. Thanks for the food for thought!
posted by
Julia.
on February 9, 2007 at 10:14 AM
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