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arGee - again you leave a comment that I wish I had wrote - how can I not
completely agree with every point that you make?
I have taken more than a little heat over my lifetime by declaring ancient texts as redundant to the modern era. I would have possibly taken a little less heat if I was able to say it as you do. Some of my words on the subject have been less than kind. How I said the same thing: "We have nothing to learn from ancient man other than how primitive, superstitious and generally horrible our predecessors were." . . . I almost got stoned for that one. ....and I am sure you see why I must agree.
Hollywood has done us all a disservice in many other ways pertaining to maintaining these myths. "Touched by an Angel" types of shows are watched by some people as documentaries. How is this comatose funk that mankind has let itself fall into ever going to be cured?
posted by
gomedome
on January 20, 2007 at 6:18 PM
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cantey_1975 - that same common sense leads us to the realization that all
men can be and will be humbled.
If one's adversaries, by some stroke of luck, never accomplish the task, father time will. Napolean's Waterloo comes to mind as does the old west gunslinger sagas. There is always someone just a little bit smarter and faster than any of us. Arrogance gets clubbed to death and completely cured by humility. Those that think themselves immune make me chuckle ........ and as you say, it is just common sense.
posted by
gomedome
on January 20, 2007 at 5:45 PM
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A concept that permeates the writing of "believers," Gome...
Is that knowledge can be gained by reading ancient texts. Other than "historical" knowledge of things past, knowledge is never available in something someone wrote a long time ago. Knowledge can only be gained by experimentation in the literal scientific sense. Of course, one can gain knowledge discovered by someone else by reading, but this usually is not the stuff of ancient texts.
Hollywood has done us a huge disfavor by depicting knowledgeable wizards surrounded by ancient texts, gleaning arcane knowledge from their "researches." There is absolutely nothing to be learned about the universe in which we live by studying the ancients. You can learn a great deal about the ancients by studying the ancients, but absolutely nothing about today and our universe.
The bottom line here is that a person needs to understand what a "holy book" really is, and should not try to make its verses into the be-all and end-all of everything. People who do this are not my equals, do not understand things as I do, as they are, in fact, and cannot adequately discuss things that really matter.
Do I respect the "true believer"? To a point, insofar as that person is true to his or her faith, and so far as that person doesn't try to bring down everything we have learned about the universe for so many years. Insofar as that person demonstrates at least a modicum of common sense and logical thinking ability. But then, of course, if that person were really a logical thinker, then he or she wouldn't be a "true believer."
But I'll take Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon anyday...
posted by
arGee
on January 20, 2007 at 5:43 PM
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gome
of course I was not implying one needs religion or belief in God for any hopes of possessing humility. A level of humility comes with just a little common sense and a grasp of reality, aka, as you pointed out, survival skills.
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 20, 2007 at 3:46 PM
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Gomedome
"...they have no rights beyond what all of us have." BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is a a most appropriate statement in regard to what I was trying (but was unable) to express! Have I told you lately how glad I am that you write on this website?
posted by
Presley
on January 20, 2007 at 1:40 PM
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Presley - you encapsulate the most important reason I write this post
".......at least accept that you are entitled to your feelings and opinions without being verbally clubbed to death or band wagoned on!"
A divergent religious opinion in this case is merely a bludgeoning tool used for beating on the "offenders" until they accept the fact that some of us have no intention of living our lives in adherence to their beliefs. And until they understand that simply because they claim to adhere to a set of beliefs, they have no rights beyond what all of us have. The problem in doing this sort of thing, or in acting as some form of voice or counter balance, is in determining at what point I turn from protagonist to offender myself.
posted by
gomedome
on January 20, 2007 at 1:07 PM
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gomedome
I'm a fan of many believers and non-believers who write on this website. To some, I may be considered indecisive because of my ability to be opened minded about how differently religion, spirituality, or the lack of anything else in between are viewed or acted upon. It seems that that which we cannot understand, and will probably NEVER be able to understand, is what's bickered about on a consistent basis. Lines are drawn and band wagons are formed resulting in a big old game of I'm not gonna be your friend any more if you don't agree with me.
Post after post I come up against somone being the pot that calls the kettle black. I get balsy enough to hold a mirror up to someone and suddenly, they don't read me anymore or comment any longer. Is it the reflection they despise or me for pointing out hypocrisy? I don't mind when a mirror is held up to my face. I run away with my tail between my legs, think about it, and then come back a better person because of it. Some people can't do this! Anymore, I very rarely dabble in any discussion associated with such topics for that very reason. You can add politics to that.
To get back to your question: What's the point of religious discussion (and let's include politics) - If I could write the rules, the point is to offer personal views and opinions; to attempt to get the person who doesn't see things your way to maybe see things your way or at a minimum, at least accept that you are entitled to your feelings and opinions without being verbally clubbed to death or band wagoned on!
I think the question why is the most loaded question in the world as it pertains to any topic!
posted by
Presley
on January 20, 2007 at 12:46 PM
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Tonyzonit - it is a "mass of contradictions" - - the entire belief system
has an element of overlooking countless inconsistancies.
From the selective reasoning needed to skip over the verses describing how we are to beat our slaves to find a verse to condemn homosexuals, ....to the actions taken in efforts to promote all of the various religious agendas. Such as the bombing of an abortion clinic for example, actions that quite often contravene the underlying religious message itself.
posted by
gomedome
on January 20, 2007 at 9:37 AM
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cantey_1975 - some humility is necessary as simply a survival tool
Humility comes from the realization that no one knows everything and no one is perfect. It is reinforced throughout life's maturation process and finds an equilibrium within an individual's attitudes counter balancing their self confidence. Sadly, there are some who never quite understand that some humility is a necessary element to learning and growth. They never find that equilibrium. Where some do not possess an adequate amount of self confidence and are perpetualy humbled, it is not those people that seem to want to lead the rest of us. Instead we seem to get far too many people who have a skewed perspective of themselves, an overblown sense of self importance and want to transplant their beliefs onto us because they think they know better than us. It is but one small step to becoming a total fraud if an individual can justify this behaviour in their minds.
posted by
gomedome
on January 20, 2007 at 9:25 AM
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Also, these rigid believers are regularly and cynically manipulated
by politicians to get their votes. And it's strange how the religious vote always seems to support warlike policies and harsh punishment of offenders, while endlessly espousing the right to life ... and always hopes for the end to further life on earth and a permanent life for themselves, denying future generations a right to life at all. What a terrible mass of contradictions and quasi-fascism.
posted by
Antonionioni
on January 20, 2007 at 7:33 AM
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I think a genuine belief in God
and a genuine conversion experience should definantly have an accompanying attitude of humility born of recognition of flaws. If a person truly looks into God, he sees him/herself and appreciates how flawed he/she is. And they certainly are not bullying,arrogant, cold, superior acting, and callous towards others of differing belief. To me, when a person acts in such a way
consistently ( not an occasional mistake) all the while professing Christ ( or whomever), then they are a fraud.
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 19, 2007 at 10:29 PM
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