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Good post.
posted by
A-and-B
on November 15, 2006 at 1:38 PM
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kidnykid - I know what you are speaking of
Back when it happened I was in the clutches of the catholic mission school crazies who filled us in on every delerious detail.
HERE is a link to a basic outline of the occurance, you will notice however that the images have been dramatically enhanced. There have been a few attempts to explain this sighting as occurring by natural causes but ultimately it is much like the Virgin Mary grilled cheese sandwich. One thing that I think you may be mistaken about is in your suggesting that Egypt was primarily Muslim at the time, though that itself is true, this did not take place in a Muslim enclave with Muslims identifying the vision as the Virgin Mary. It was most definitely identified as the Virgin Mary by catholics and promoted as such by the catholic church. If it were to happen today however, the catholic church has a much different policy towards visions and other things such as stigmata or faith healing or whatever. They no longer support or attempt to verify any such claims but instead let the faithful run with it and make their own assumptions.
posted by
gomedome
on November 15, 2006 at 10:39 AM
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Up until the time of the first Russian Venus probe, Gome...
Venus was thought to have a relatively benign surface temperature and pressure. The actual conditions came as a surprise to most astronomers.
(The followers of Velikovsky, of course, knew better. If they could not convince you directly, they would refer you to their astrologer or numerologist...)
posted by
arGee
on November 15, 2006 at 10:17 AM
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I've noticed something similar - Catholic visions or apparitions of the Virgin Mary will adhere closely to Church teaching, while New Agers having visions of the Virgin Mary will tend to hear her say New Age things. The only real exception to this rule was that there was an apparition of the Virgin Mary someplace in Egypt in the 1960s, I believe. By that time, Egypt was predominantly Muslim, but I believe this vision happened near a Coptic church. I'm not sure exactly where this vision happened, though, so I'd have to do some research.
posted by
kidnykid
on November 15, 2006 at 10:03 AM
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arGee - a question about the event that you attended
Was it commonly accepted back then that the surface of Venus was in the 500 degree celsius range?
posted by
gomedome
on November 15, 2006 at 9:53 AM
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I think you made my point, Gome.
posted by
arGee
on November 15, 2006 at 9:48 AM
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arGee - can we always assume that being right is an absolute?
The value of being right for the wrong reasons would depend on what we are speaking of.
posted by
gomedome
on November 15, 2006 at 9:33 AM
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You remind me, Gome, of an incident...
That happened back in the 1960s. I was at University of Washington, attending a lecture by Willy Lee (pronounced "lay"), the famous ex-German Rocket Scientist who had come to the States with Werner von Braun. Lee had taken on Immanuel Velikovsky in the pages of Saturday Review over Velikovsly's chaotic view of our solar system, as a consequence of Velikovsky's immense popularity with the college crowd.
As it happened, one of the consequences of Velikovsky's perspective was that the planet Venus had a very high surface temperature, which at the time he made his prediction, was not part of the common wisdom in the scientific community.
I understood why Velikovsky was wrong, and that his prediction was right for the wrong reasons, but I couldn't resist poking a bit of fun at Dr. Lee. I raised my hand, was recognized, and asked the following question: "Dr. Lee...now that Immanuel Velikovsky's prediction of a hot Venus has been verified by the latest Venus planetary probe, do you have any relevant comments?" And I sat down.
Dr. Lee, who was a small man, stepped from behind the podium, stretched to his greatest height, put his hands on his hips, and turned beet red. "I have zees to say about zat," he shouted in his heavy German accent. "Dr. Velikovsky is von hundret-tventy percent rrrong...PIRRR-IOD!"
I'll never forget it.
(Sometimes people are right...for the wrong reasons. Does this mean they're really right? Or are they really wrong?)
posted by
arGee
on November 15, 2006 at 8:15 AM
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arGee - I hear you - but there are some here that can pleasantly surprise
On the whole however, one must lower expectations and assume somewhat of a hall monitor role. Every once in awhile a challenge or a valid perspective not thought of before is offered. The only attitude that an individual of some mental faculty can assume in a forum such as this is; "likening it to sifting through coal looking for diamonds while keeping in mind that even a broken clock tells correct time twice a day."
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2006 at 7:58 PM
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Blanche. - well actually you did suggest that I should believe it
When you phrased it using this term: ".....there is still credible evidence...... " If the evidence is in fact credible I am forced to examine it with an open mind but as I was tryng to point out in my last comment, once a religious construct is introduced (any religious construct) the words "credible evidence" become like "military intelligence" or "safe sex".....
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2006 at 7:45 PM
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Schatz - the Virgin Mary raised my mother's old age pension last year
Yep, the government debated over it for about a year, then put it into action after announcing it all over the news. . . . but my aged mother, now in her 83 year, does not watch TV because it is full of Heenglish pig dogs and does not read newspapers because they are full of the lies of those same Heenglish pig dogs. Her only input from any media source (term used very loosely) unfortunately is some propaganda rag called the "Catholic Register". The old girl doesn't even need the money but has it in her head that she earned it and that she wants to leave some loot for her grandchildren when she passes. So the Virgin Mary got the call .....and delivered apparently.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2006 at 7:38 PM
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I didn't say you had to believe it, Gomedome, but I do.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 14, 2006 at 7:29 PM
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Blanche. - humans having a residual energy signature I can buy but
"the residual energies associated with the soul" introduces a purely religious construct. The existence of a "soul" is not a belief that is shared by all of the human species . . . .
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2006 at 7:28 PM
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Gomedome, as much as it flies in the face of scientific evidence, there is
still credible evidence of energies associated with the soul, a residual imprint of energy after death, dreams, etc. Why should this be the only reality? There are things we know now that weren't known 100 years ago that blow people's minds, what will we know in 100 years about quantum physics and the energy of the mind and soul that we don't know now.
it's best to keep an open mind, I think, there are more things between heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 14, 2006 at 6:47 PM
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Oh, the humanity. I agree. It's embarassing when my family starts saying truly nutty things along the lines of my cousin never learning to read until he finally asked Jesus to help him overcome his disability. Oy. But they really believe, and the kid did eventually learn to read. So if it is all in his mind, at least it's to his benefit. I think it does damage to the psyche as well, though, with all the shoulds and the guilt.
I am sure you've seen the joke, the parody of the movie The Sixth Sense, **whispers** I see stupid people. They're everywhere. They don't even know they're stupid! (or something very funny along those lines....)
posted by
Schatz
on November 14, 2006 at 6:32 PM
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Aren't you presuming, Gome...
That "Mind" exists in these folks, in order for their perceptions to be so generated? Are you sure about this – the mind part, I mean?
posted by
arGee
on November 14, 2006 at 6:31 PM
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TVBlogger - I would contend that we are already advanced along a single
trajectory in explaining things that were once considered paranormal.
The trajectory pointing only in the direction of debunking formerly held erroneous beliefs pertaining to the paranormal, never corroborating them. Typically there is much irrational resistence intent on adhering to ancient explanations of things we do not comprehend.... I am routinely shocked at some of the things that some folks are capable of believing.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2006 at 3:46 PM
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Xeno-x - the crying statues is a really sad example of how much people
want to believe something.
And they are so easy to make that instructions on how to make a crying statue are posted oinline. Basically, plaster or the right type of ceramic are porous materials capable of absorbing moisture. The exterior of these statues are glazed with an impermeable coating, a miniscule and undetectable opening cut into eyes of these statues creates the only fluid exit port through the impermeable glaze. Fill the statue with your fluid of choice, be it blood, milk or human tears and voila....you too can create your own tourist attraction. ....and the best part is that because these statues (which exist all around the world and as icons of every religion) have been elevated to "sacred" status, no one is allowed or break one apart to uncover the fraud..... human beings embarrass me sometimes.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2006 at 3:37 PM
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Yes, it is all in our minds
but according to the physics books I'm reading, it's the mind that creates the physical world. So.... with some of the minds out there, that could be a little scary. I think there are a lot of things we don't understand and things like quantum physics will begin to bring about scientific explanations for some things that seem "paranormal" now.
posted by
TVBlogger
on November 14, 2006 at 3:29 PM
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OKAY REGARDING VISIONS
that is, going to a place where the Virgin Mary appeared or something else happened or moved or such
much is from a heightened state of emotion -- hysteria, if you will. I remember sitting down at a dinner to celebrate a group's good works and the lady next to me had been on a pilgrimage to Yugoslavia or something (before the breakup) and she swore up and down that she saw some miraculous occurrence that was purported to happen there.
right now on blogit, one poster has given us a photo of a Virgin Mary statuette "crying blood" -- now, that possibly could be red pigment of some sort separating from the rest of the paint base.
sometimes, if someone says a ghost or other some such apparition occurs somewhere, then others are sort of hyped up for it and they, also will "see" it.
our mind will make a detour around the eyes and see things that aren't there.
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 14, 2006 at 3:20 PM
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