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SuccessWarrior, I have mostly doubted their integity, and here's why...
A godmman’s success or failure is determined by his popularity and the adoration of his followers. Each making claims, one taller than the other, to remain in business. The competition is intense because one’s followers can always be driven away by a more dramatical guru. In this game of ‘holy’ business, the one essence that is sure to be massacred is Truth itself. In this context, therefore, the adage, ‘Guru ko pehchan kar aur paani ko chaan kar peena chahiye’ (just as water be filtered before drinking, so should a guru be pre-tested), becomes very meaningful.
This message is illustrated beautifully in a story in Pancha Tantra:
An egret fishing in marshy waters, standing still for hours, his eyes seemingly closed in contemplation of Brahman, presented a tranquil picture. His nature was like that of an anchorite and a mystic, and he had gained a great reputation for his mastery of meditation among the fishes and frogs that lived in the murky pond. Soon it was summer and the pond began to shrink rapidly. The aquatic devotees panicked. An SOS was sent to the ‘bird sage’ who promised ‘to lead his sheep to greener pastures’ by ferrying the creatures one by one, lovingly cradled in his great beak, to a river nearby that ran all the year round. There they would all live happily to attain mukhti (salvation) untainted by shortages or shrinkages.
One by one, the ‘followers’ did get ‘liberated’, but not in the reverine waters; they got drowned in the bilious little pond that lay at the bottom of the egret’s belly. At long last, however, the sham sannyasi (Guru) did meet his match in a crab who alone was wise enough not to be taken in like his unfortunate brothers, and saw through the disguise. He bit the bird to death and crawled all by himself to the river, to a new life. Moral of the story? Never let the outer garb fool you. Yet another moral, from the crab’s point of view: you can attain nirvana or salvation by yourself, but it is often a long and lonely walk.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on November 14, 2006 at 3:28 AM
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but I do not doubt their "integrity," within the framework of their belief
arGee, I wish to agree with you on that and for the most part I do.
Yet it is very hard to make a blanket statement, like it is in any field,but especially so when religion is concerned.
In business, some can maneuver through loopholes to barely abide by the law, but with religious leaders you tend to hold them to stricter letters of the law, as they should be held. So that the line becomes thinner and the matter grayer and like another blogger wrote, in this non-denominational field, there is no authority greater than the leader himself.
I was also in a pentecostal movement similar to what you shared, except that the sham was about prophesies. In the same way the preacher would be fed information about someone in the crowd and then stand them up and "prophesize" over them about their future or whatever. It brought about the same result with more money, power and fame!
posted by
kayottic
on November 13, 2006 at 11:37 AM
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I was born and raised in the "Movement," Success...
And I can tell you for certain that the vast majority of men and women I met who "tended to God's business," were honest, sincere, devout people who really did believe in, and practice what they preached. They tended to look askance at the so-called nondenominational, mega-church leaders, but with one exception, the guys I met appeared to be exactly what they advertised.
The exception was a guy with his wife, son, and daughter who traveled around the States and Europe in the late 1950s and 1960s. I don't remember his last name, and I am certain that he is no longer in the business, although his son might very well have taken over the reigns.
His approach was very simple. He would arrange with local churches of all evangelical and pentecostal types for announcements in their churches that he would be in town for about two weeks with a revival tent meeting series. Everyone would cooperate to get the event set up and going. Then, folks would attend every evening to listen to this guy, and be "entertained" by his people.
I met these folks in Germany, where I lived with my missionary parents. Since I was fluently bilingual, I served as a simultaneous interpreter for his son's presentation. As such, I got a good view of the inner workings of the group.
Each night, they set a goal for the "take." As soon as practicable each evening, they would pass the plates. While the congregation sang, they would do a quick count. If they met the goal, that was it for the evening, except for the "healing," and the sermon. If the take was insufficient, a shill in the audience would suddenly stand up and declare that the Lord had laid it in his heart to donate X Deutsch Marks. Immediately, another shill would stand up with an even larger offering. If this didn't get the "bidding" going, another shill would stand, and this continued until they had created a general "bidding" war for donations! Usually, this caused them to reach their expected take. If not, sometime during the sermon, another shill would stand up, crying, testifying, and offering an outrageous sum for the "Lord's service." This ushered in another round of "bidding." I never saw it go beyond two extra rounds.
The Evangelist wore the most expensive clothing money could buy, his kids were arrogant snobs, into everything kids in the late 1950s got into, and his daughter granted her favors to several "worthy" young friends of her brother (I missed out on that one!). Eventually, following an exposé by Der Spiegel, the German government declared him persona non-grata, and kicked him out of Germany.
But as I said, most of the evangelists I met were honest and sincere – from my present perspective, they were, and are, sincerely misguided; but I do not doubt their "integrity," within the framework of their belief system.
posted by
arGee
on November 13, 2006 at 11:21 AM
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Kay, that's interesting and makes perfect sense.
Building business kits and models for people to start up religious businesses. Running demographics and surveys to see what people want to hear instead of preaching god's word (as if anyone could do that anyway).
posted by
SuccessWarrior
on November 13, 2006 at 10:05 AM
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Ben, I think there are some that start that way
but I think that more of them start for the money. Some may want to spread the good word and get the money but they wouldn't do it without the money.
posted by
SuccessWarrior
on November 13, 2006 at 10:03 AM
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Successwarrior, I will speak to this from my own experience
I was involved in this movement back in the early '80's and at that point it was a grass roots effort to bypass religion and really "get to god/jesus". A true appeal for the most part, but there are always going to be wolves in sheep's clothing.
With that said, I ran like hell from it all in the 90's b/c by that point the corruption was getting obvious. They were beginning to make business plans and marketing stratigies of where to start the next church.Instead of listening to where god told them to build as we had done before...HA!
Out of this was born the Mega-church. Bill Hybols was one of the first outside of chicago and he started a whole other career in training pastors on how to set up these churches. They called it church planting or something.Rick Warren does the same thing today as I am sure do others.
So,yes, in my humble opinion, these churches are formed entirely on business plans and marketing research and such....for this is being a good steward of "god's" money.
posted by
kayottic
on November 13, 2006 at 8:12 AM
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It depends
It really depends on the individual. Yes, some really are in it for the money. But there are others that start out with the right motives - at least initially, their hearts are in the right place, then they get to the point where they get addicted to power and all that money the parishioners are giving them. I feel Haggard, toward the end, was telling people what he knew they wanted to hear. Some of them do extensive market research, finding that people want their self-esteem boosted; they don't want to hear the painful truth. That's why "positive thinking" is so popular - people want their self-esteem boosted, and they don't want to hear that they have done something wrong and need to clean up their respective acts. Positive thinking and self-esteem boosting and political correctness are what brings in the big donors to places like that, not the truth.
posted by
kidnykid
on November 13, 2006 at 8:06 AM
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