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true kevin
posted by
Xeno-x
on December 7, 2006 at 11:39 AM
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Actually, I was referring to your premise that Kerry's "joke" was
intended to point out the argument you're making in your post. If his joke was meant for Bush, then it had nothing to do with the exploitation of less-educated citizens. You may have a point, but it's different than the one on top of Kerry's head.
posted by
Kevin_Lauer
on December 6, 2006 at 5:47 PM
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actually it is no premise.
its facts.
doesn't matter who says it.
it always has been.
the common people have gone into war to fight and die while the elite and privileged stay safe at home.
and during this time of the volunteer army and increased national guard numbers, it's those who cannot pay for college on their own, or those who can't find suitable employment who join in order to receive those benefits.
that part is not a moot point.
when later Kerry's folks said he misspoke what the written speech actually said, and that he was referring to Bushie, then the debate shifted, but the facts do not.
posted by
Xeno-x
on December 5, 2006 at 2:20 PM
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Kerry claimed (after the fact) that...
...his poorly-delivered joke was intended as a jab at President Bush, not at the troops. If we are to believe Kerry, then your premise does not hold since he wasn't even thinking of the troops. BTW, check out
my take on this topic on my PolyTicks® blog.
posted by
Kevin_Lauer
on December 5, 2006 at 1:58 PM
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Nice spin....
one would think that his people would have had the copy of the actual text on camera to show his actual script, don't you think? You must be truely bless to be privy to such information.......LOL
Just listen to what you just said......if there was a copy of such text....he wouldn't have had to apologize about anything would he? Show us the text!
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 2, 2006 at 12:15 PM
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Xeno-x - But, the point of Kerry's botched joke was that BUSH was ...
... intellectually lazy in college, and not equiped for the presidency. The text of his speech (the paper he held at the podium) read, ''Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush.''
Bush is so stupid he doesn't even realize that HE was being insulted, not our military.
posted by
blogflogger
on November 2, 2006 at 10:57 AM
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unfortunately - I agree
Kerry will eat those words - but here is the point - THE PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO ARE GOING TO OUR COLLEGES ARE NOT MOSTLY AMERICANS!!! - because we can't afford to send our children - so everybody else in the world who HAS MONEY is in OUR COLLEGES!!!!!!! Men and women that go to war are brave and have have my respect - EDUCATED OR NOT.
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 1, 2006 at 5:47 PM
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unfortunately - I agree
but i don't think he can comeback from that one. see what us AMERICANS forget is - the people who are in OUR COLLEGES who can afford OUR COLLEGES are
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 1, 2006 at 5:45 PM
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I have great admiration for anyone who joins the military to better their
options, Corbin. There's nothing at all wrong with that.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 1, 2006 at 2:53 PM
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And?
They have done that since the beginning of the army.......
for me a major point is....it is an all volunteer army....
They are signing up......knowing they could be killed or maimed.....true there are great opportunities to gain training in skills that will get them good jobs when they get out....and many are working towards the college education opportunities...but what is wrong with that......at least they are taking the steps with the intent to better themselves........
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2006 at 2:51 PM
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okay, corbin, let's agree with your premise
after all you do have some corroboration.
still, many join the armed services because they cannot find sufficient employment elsewhere.
this is a primary point of my post. This, I believe, is what Kerry was intimating when he made his statement. He was not insulting our troops; he was pointing out that it is the less educated who serve. Those who can find a job, do; those who can't . . . ?
Also, I believe that HS diplomas might be a requirement for enlistment anyway. Let's check, shall we?
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 1, 2006 at 2:40 PM
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Of course, Corbin, I make no claims to infallibility, my point was simply
that your quote proves nothing. A high school education means diddly squat these days, so in order for a poor or lower middle class (lets be honest, usually male) person to get out of poverty and seek gainful employment, the military has traditionally provided a better option.
I meant, that Kerry's point was that in order for someone of limited resources to make something of themselves, college is a better option, if possible than the military, where in the current circumstances, they risk death and dismemberment.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 1, 2006 at 2:33 PM
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Yes...I did......
Typing faster than I'm thinking........thank you so much for pointing that out......we all do that from time to time don't we?
I guess that this has to be your "intrepretation"....
How else you you measure this when, once again, the original statement in the post is claiming that the recruits are less educated.......
I provide information that shows that more recruits have high school educations than the general population whichs indicates Xeno's premise is wrong and obviously just an opinion.....which I might add he is entitled to.....
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2006 at 2:30 PM
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I believe you meant "straw man", Corbin, and my response was to your
statemen
If, for example, we consider the education of every recruit, 98% joined with high-school diplomas or better. By comparison, 75% of the general population meets that standard. Among all three-digit ZIP code areas in the USA in 2003 (one can study larger areas by isolating just the first three digits of ZIP codes), not one had a higher graduation rate among civilians than among its recruits.t here:
That is a poor standard, by which to consider the average recruit better educated than the average, which proves that they do not have more opportunities than simply to join the military.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 1, 2006 at 2:21 PM
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Straw dog.....
No one is denying that. but the discussion is not about the merits of a high school education.......but to the statement Xeno made that was as follows:
that of those who fight and die for our country, the predominant group is less educated. In this case, they join the National Guard to get education benefits, or, because of a poor economy in which they cannot find employment sufficient to the needs of them or their families, they join the military in order to receive income and benefits.
My response was to that statement....what was you response to???
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2006 at 2:17 PM
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A high school diploma, Corbin? That will barely get you a McDonald's job
if that. If that's your standard of "better educated" than the average recruit, then that's not saying much, and the Heritage Foundation is notoriously skewed to the right.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 1, 2006 at 2:13 PM
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According to a comprehensive study of comparing all enlistees for the years 1998-99 and 2003 that The Heritage Foundation just released, the typical recruit in the all-volunteer force is wealthier, more educated and more rural than the average 18- to 24-year-old citizen is. Indeed, for every two recruits coming from the poorest neighborhoods, there are three recruits coming from the richest neighborhoods.
…
If, for example, we consider the education of every recruit, 98% joined with high-school diplomas or better. By comparison, 75% of the general population meets that standard. Among all three-digit ZIP code areas in the USA in 2003 (one can study larger areas by isolating just the first three digits of ZIP codes), not one had a higher graduation rate among civilians than among its recruits.
If, for example, we consider the education of every recruit, 98% joined with high-school diplomas or better. By comparison, 75% of the general population meets that standard. Among all three-digit ZIP code areas in the USA in 2003 (one can study larger areas by isolating just the first three digits of ZIP codes), not one had a higher graduation rate among civilians than among its recruits.
In fact, since the 9/11 attacks, more volunteers have emerged from the middle and upper classes and fewer from the lowest-income groups. In 1999, both the highest fifth of the nation in income and the lowest fifth were slightly underrepresented among military volunteers. Since 2001, enlistments have increased in the top two-fifths of income levels but have decreased among the lowest fifth..........
Tim Kane is an Air Force veteran, and James Carafano is an Army veteran. Both are research fellows at The Heritage Foundation.
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 1, 2006 at 2:09 PM
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