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You know what...
forget it. I really don't feel like getting into an argument or repeating myself.
posted by
WhiteJedi
on September 5, 2006 at 5:41 AM
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WhiteJedi - talk about missing the point?
The first thing to clear up is: Polygamy is currently illegal in all North American jurisdictions. I only offer one grounds for a legitimate objection to polygamy in that it creates a widely exploited welfare loophole that has taxpayers footing the bill. I also clearly state in this post that I could not care less if it resurfaces as a legal option with this loophole eliminated ...so what are you blathering on about?
Serial polygamy? Did you make that phrase up and better yet, are you attempting to identify this as a real social problem? The reality is that it is others who would attempt to impose their moral outlook on the lifestyles of people in our society, not I. Polygamy will probably never be accepted in the current social paridigm but eventually it will become a necessity as life sustaining resources become depleted. We have lived through an era of overconsumption fueled in part by the advent of 2 household incomes, several household incomes will eventually be needed just to maintain a decent standard of living. This reality is just around the corner in our history. Sorry, but I don't buy the shortage of men argument, the demographics planet wide are fairly even. The greatest disparity appears after 60 years of age simply because men don't live as long as women. ....you gotta take the time to read the post, so far you have mentioned nothing relevant to what I have said in this post.
posted by
gomedome
on September 3, 2006 at 8:24 PM
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Gnomedome, you missed the point.
I was trying to say two things, 1) polygamy is already practiced legally in a different form and 2) making polygamy illegal does not solve any problems. Serial polygamy is defined as a man marrying different women in succession through divorce and remarriage. It is not reasonable to define one form of polygamy as totally wrong and another as perfectly acceptable. There is at least one case I know of where the wife encouraged her husband to bring more women into their marriage. No, she was not brainwashed or coereced. Polygamy is often dismissed as a weird religious practice without any thought given to possible benefits. Think about how women often outnumber men in society. Should a woman be denied children and a happy relationship simply because society condemns all other forms of marriage besides monogamy? Women are social creatures by nature, it makes sense to want more than one woman in the family structure. As for the legal issue, will, once something is made illegal it doesn't automatically go away. In fact, the perceived social problem usually becomes worse. Government really should not have any say in marriage. There should not be moral legislation that favors one form of marriage over another simply because of bias and prejudice. Your solution to polygamy would only hurt, not help.
posted by
WhiteJedi
on September 3, 2006 at 7:52 PM
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That will be very interesting reading, Gomedome
Welfare in general is a hot button issue, there's all kinds of facts and fallacies, the "Welfare moms in Cadillacs" for one. I'd like to see where the bulk of the money really is going, because here in WA state, I don't think anyone is getting rich on $339 a month General Assistance, with a few more dollars in AFDC for mothers with children.
posted by
Blanche.
on September 3, 2006 at 5:13 PM
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Blanche01 - actually the welfare stats are alarming
There are some communities that are taking millions from the system while contributing virtually nothing in return as taxable income. I will post some of the numbers later when I have time. If memory serves, yes I think that Utah has the highest incedence of polygamy. It is a practice that is spread around both the USA and Canada.
posted by
gomedome
on September 3, 2006 at 5:11 PM
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Do the welfare stats in Utah back this up, Gomdome?
I'm assuming that Utah probably has the highest rates of these polygamous "spritual unions".
posted by
Blanche.
on September 3, 2006 at 3:35 PM
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Gomedome, I think your first sentence is the most salient
How many guys can handle one wife, let alone a harem? My boyfriend's take on the situation re: the Latter Day Saints is that it's selfish on the part of the church leaders, it leaves the non-dominant males out, and in the long run, destabilizes the group: single men are dissatisfied and either leave or challenge the dominant males, much like lions do. In a lot of ways, we are not so different from animals, except with opposable thumbs and a cerebral cortex. Woohoo.
posted by
Blanche.
on September 3, 2006 at 3:33 PM
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WhiteJedi - you wander into all of the grey areas associated with polygamy
Where in this post, I tried not to. First off, how marriages are viewed in other parts of the world is not our concern, I clearly state that I am speaking of North American societies and "our part of the world" in this post. Redefining divorce as polygamy doesn't quite work either, though there are many deliterious effects wrought on society by divorce, it is legal and it is an accepted practice, it in no way fits into the definition of polygamy. Unless you are suggesting that everyone should only have one shot at marriage in their lives. I intentionally did not go into the under age aspect of the practices of some polygamist groups. There are already laws on the books to deal with those things and it is an issue aside from the concept of having multiple marriage partners. Of all of the polygamist marriages in North America, very few involve under age girls. The point here that you seemed to miss is that we may have a number of objections to polygamy on a number of grounds but there are very few grounds that are derived from a truly practical and universal issue. The fact that the majority of polygamist marriages are supported by welfare contributions is such a universal objection.
In the end, you argue my point while solidifying it so I'm not quite clear what you are trying to say.
posted by
gomedome
on September 3, 2006 at 1:10 PM
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You have missed a few things.
Your indignation at polygamist draining the taxpayer system is justified. But think about what allows this practice to continue. The polygamist you speak of do not have the choice of practicing their lifestyle legally. Polygamy in and of itself is not a bad practice. The majority of americans practice polygamy without realizing it. The only difference is the wives are in succession, i.e. divorce. Many cultures other than the US practice polygamy. I do think there should be a distinction between forced sexual servitude and consenting adults. The problems associated with polygamy cannot be solved if the practice stays illegal and therefore, ignored. The solution is to keep government out of marriage, in any form. Marriage needs to be clearly defined as a relationship between consenting adults. That by itself would deal with underage polygamy. Sorry to be so long winded but I had to speak up. You are a bright man in many respects but I feel you have a blindspot in this area.
posted by
WhiteJedi
on September 3, 2006 at 12:29 PM
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