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Aaron
The problem is you just are not getting it.
I am not comparing actions, but attitude. The actions come form attitudes. And honestly, if the Christian right had their way we would be at a point where I would be silenced and locked up, if not put to death for my views. There are groups which are very active in this country who have an agenda of turning us into such a country.
The attitude of the Christian right is no difference form certain religious groups in the Middle East who are causing the real problems over there.
Just think about this, if those Christians are not trying to force their beliefs and just want to show respect for the dead, then why can they not find a neutral, unoffensive symbol to use? Why do they need to use a cross? The only reason to put up a giant cross that hey know will offend and cause problems is to force their beliefs on others and show that they believe they are superior and have every right to push their beliefs.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 6, 2006 at 6:45 PM
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Let's see if I can clarify
It's difficult to explain my position on an involved topic in just a few paragraphs, but try looking at it this way:
In the much of the Middle East, a person who converts from Islam to another Christianity might be killed. Others are imprisoned or harrassed. That, to me, is violation of the freedom of religion.
A person who sees a religious symbol in public and becomes offended is hardly experiencing the same thing. They are just being hyper-sensitive.
Now, I'm not even saying I'm in favor things like displaying crosses on public property. I'm just saying that trying to equate things some Christians want (10 commandments displays, prayer in schools) to what exists in the Muslim world is wrong.
posted by
AaronB
on September 5, 2006 at 8:03 AM
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Aaron
You are missing the main idea of my point. Why offend anyone? Why put up something that you know is going to offend people? The only reason is because you are trying to force your beliefs on others. You can do a memorial that will offend no one and can be very up lifting and spiritual. You can also do a religious memorial in a way that does feel as if belfries are being forced on others. Yet these groups wish to do neither of those things and are very openly trying to offend by making it clear that hey wish to force their beliefs on others.
I say do not offend if you have a choice. Keep religious icons where they belong, in churches and people's homes or other private places where those who follow the icons can comfortably enjoy them without forcing them on others. Don't make them public eye sores, as most crosses actually are. I can not believe that anyone would find most of the crosses out there to be spiritual, since they are very much ugly and pointless. In fact more and more the anywhere the cross is used it shows a true lack of imagination and can only be a sign of attempting to show religious superiority. You see I am not offended by a cross in a church or in a person's home, because those are places I can choose not to go if I wish to not go. If I am driving down the road and see some big old plan, boring cross that I have no choice but to view that offends me. I would rather see nature or something that inspires me, you know, something truly spiritual.
You may not find symbols of other faiths to be offensive., but trust me when I say that you are in the minority of Christians then. I have had a whole lot of personal experience, so please do not make any ignorant statements such as ' You're still making wild leaps and assumptions about people you don't seem to understand," because I promise you I understand Christians way too well. I have been told playing D&D is demonic and that I need to stop doing that or I will go to hell. I have been told that they need to stop teaching children to make stars the traditional way because that is teaching them to draw a pentagram and so the schools are just trying to turn them into Satanists. I have been told that Buddhists are evil, as well as Muslims and such, by good old Christians and these beliefs are held by the churches those people go to. I have seen more than enough examples to know that in general Christians do not wish to tolerate or show respect to any beliefs that are not their own. This is first hand experience.
If the Church of Satan tried to put up a giant pentagram (Even on private property) anywhere in America I would bet anything that there would be more opposition to it by Christians than you have ever seen the ACLU come close to doing. Seriously, I get the feeling you have met less Christians in your life than I have in mine.
If you really want some examples I can have my wife write a post here about her family and all the of what she experienced first hand during her childhood. If her mother and grandmother had not lightened up most likely I would never have been welcomed into the family.
Now I know not all Christians are like that, but enough are and the rest mostly just do nothing when that group is active and trying to oppress others. I would honestly say the majority do have some serious issue and it sounds as though you are not in that majority. Although part of that is that majority is shrinking and hopefully in the next few generations we will see those repressive beliefs vanish.
Don't try to deny the simple fact that right now there is a majority of Christians here in America that would love to turn us into a Third World Country by making us Religious country deprived of true freedom.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 2, 2006 at 5:20 PM
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Let's see...
A cross would be supported by about 75% of the population and would offend maybe 5%. A pentagram would be supported by maybe 1% and would offend about 95%. Running over the rights of minority positions is wrong, but is it better to let tiny groups of offended people dictate to everyone? A few people will be offended by anything, sometimes you just can't please everybody.
By the way, I would not be offended if adherents of another religion wanted to build a monument, even on public land. A pentagram specifically is a difficult question. Based on my (admittedly little) experience, there seems to be an element to satanism that intentionally goes for the shock factor, then acts offended when other people take offense at them.
You're still making wild leaps and assumptions about people you don't seem to understand. The vast majority of Christians want there to be freedom of religion. You're operating on the idea that freedom of religion includes freedom from being offended and freedom from encountering anything resembling a religious symbol in the public square.
posted by
AaronB
on September 2, 2006 at 2:14 PM
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posted by
Xeno-x
on September 2, 2006 at 2:10 PM
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Janes
It amazes me that you hate freedom so much that you believe it is alright to offend even 20% of the population when you actually can be true to what freedom is and not offend anyone.
I would think it better to not offend anyone if you have a choice.
You really do wish to turn this country into one just like those in the Middle East because you wish to allow one religion which is the majority in the country to do as they please.
Don't delude yourself, this country was NOT founded as a Christian country.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 2, 2006 at 12:12 PM
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I guess, what it boils down to, is that this country was built with judeo-christian principles, even though I realize most atheists somehow disagree with that. It's still a fact. And the majority of people still respect some of those Christian symbols, particularly when used as a memorial after a horrific event -- such as Katrina.
If a Church of Satan member wants to put up a pentagram on his property, that's perfectly fine.
The alternative, I suppose, would be to have a federal memorial with different sections -- one for Christian types, one for Jews, one for Muslims, and something totally neutral for everyone else. I think, though, if you took a poll of people visiting the Katrina memorial, the vast majority - greater than 80% - would not be offended by the cross.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on September 2, 2006 at 9:34 AM
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Aaron
It is not them wanting the cross memorials that makes them like the religious governments in the Middle East, but them wanting it so only their religion is reflected publicly and only their morals should be followed and that all laws should be based off of their beliefs. The religious right seriously wants this, which is one of the greatest reasons as to why if you really believe in freedom and wish to make sure this country stay great we must make sure at all costs that we keep a solid separation of church and state and make it clear that we are NOT a Christian country. Part of that is saying that there should be no crosses put up on public lands. The cross is a religious symbol of one religious sect, not all. It is showing favoritism to a certain religion to allow them to put up their symbol everywhere they please because they are in the majority and have money to do this.
Seriously, do you think the religious right would every allow The Church of Satan to put a pentagram up as a memorial? Even if it was done on private land those guys would be up in arms declaring who evil it is and such.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 1, 2006 at 6:20 PM
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There's a balance that must be maintained
between free exercise of religion and the restriction on government establishment of religion. Different people will disagree as to where exactly that line should go, but it is uninformed and slanderous to say that Christians who want to be able to have a cross on a monument equate to the actual abuses of religious freedom that go on in the Muslim world.
posted by
AaronB
on September 1, 2006 at 2:47 PM
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