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- Go to Odysseus - this is my problem with you right here >>>>
Gomedome….I very much agree with this statement of yours:
“All one person can do in society to promote "goodness and morality" to use your words, is get their own house in order and attempt to the best of their abilities to influence their own small realm to proliferate the values that we all should agree are important.”-Gomedome
That's a great quote! Listen, I gotta run…heading up to the lake for the weekend…..this was great fun and I very much enjoyed conversing with you. Have a super Labor Day weekend.
posted by
telemachus
on September 1, 2006 at 12:00 PM
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Odysseus - I've been called worse things than a "believer"
The part that you will never understand is illustrated when you say this: "Where we obviously start to part is with regard to our posture towards others." ....we have not begun to part here, we were never close. All one person can do in society to promote "goodness and morality" to use your words, is get their own house in order and attempt to the best of their abilities to influence their own small realm to proliferate the values that we all should agree are important. To think that anyone can have any effect on the "goodness and morality" of others outside of their immediate sphere of influence, i.e. family, ultimately becomes an effort filled with much acrimony and negativity. How in the world does that proliferate these qualities? It is simply an effort that can only be described as imposing one's perspectives and beliefs on others.
I have no intention of allowing anyone to ever have a hand in determining what is a good and right way for me to live my life. Certainly I will not be subjected to the perspectives of others in what they think some mythical being wants of us. By the same token, I will not impose my perspectives on others, if they want what I have and they ask me to help them achieve it, I will help them. In all other instances I will simply show them by my behavior and actions.
Right about now you are developing some objections to what I have just said, probably pertaining to the content of my blog. Without being too unkind, you have determined that I am a person other than who I really am, entirely from your own bias. You would have known all of these things about me if you had not gone off the deep end on some kind of conversion mission, where I had to buy what you were selling, 18 months ago.
You have to realize and eventually concede; that a belief in a supreme being can be and quite often is, completely irrelevant to an individual's character. Until you and countless others do accept this fact and by extension of this realization accept the differing beliefs of others, two things are a certainty to continue. Mankind will divide itself further into partisan congregational segments based on religious belief......
..and I will continue to write this blog.
posted by
gomedome
on September 1, 2006 at 11:33 AM
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Wow, gomedome, this is awesome!
Actually, I think you are (or are very close to being) a believer. Certainly you qualify under point #1 and your statement about your willingness to “lead by example” would largely qualify you under point #2. Where we obviously start to part is with regard to our posture towards others. However, I’m certain that one can praise and uplift their belief/direction by, as you say, “demonstrating” it to others. Certainly, as you say at the onslaught, “always doing the right thing in consideration of others” is paramount. There’s very little else that I can add to this other than something that I think you will agree with, which is that all of us are at different stages along this directional path and clearly, we do right to encourage one another, to the extent that we can.
I believe that the connecting life force or energy to which you refer transcends the word “conscious” as you or I might think of it. It’s clearly something that is beyond our speculation.
posted by
telemachus
on September 1, 2006 at 10:40 AM
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Odysseus - this is actually quite easy
(1) Define for me what it is that forms your utmost and highest direction in life,
Embracing my responsibilities in life as a parent, guardian, provider and community leader (yes, I have a certain status within my own community where many people depend upon me) while exemplifying all of the values that I hold as important to the best of my abilities. ...Promoting the importance of attempting to always do the right thing in consideration of others, while pursuing the ongoing quest to make my insignificant footprint in time leave this world a better place for my having existed.
(2) Indicate to me that you have faith in this direction to the extent that you see it as right and proper for yourself and others,
It is the word "others" that I take issue with here. One person can only do so much in their lives, what is right for me in how I conduct myself and the efforts I undertake to fulfill my goals, may not necessarily be right for others. I have at my stage in life identified my own abilities and talents, as well as the areas where I do not possess any significant talents. In these realizations, the determinations of how I can help others and contribute to society as a whole is derived. No one is going to tell me that I am on the wrong path, as so many others are apt to do, while at the same time, I see the folly of attempting to tell others that they are on the wrong path. The very best course of action for myself is to lead by example, make the effort to live up to the ideals that so many others merely pay lip service to. I won't go into the specifics of my community efforts here but suffice it to say that I have taken on a few responsibilities where I am the most suitable candidate. Suitable entirely because of my efforts to lead by example.
(3) Indicate to me that you are willing to praise and uplift it in the world, to the extent that you can.
I don't have to indicate anything to anybody, nor do I feel that I am particularly suited to promote any specific set of ideals or beliefs other than by demonstration. (if that is what you mean by: "....praise and uplift it in the world,..."?).
It really doesn't matter to me if you want to play connect the dots to arrive at your foregone conclusion. I do no believe that a conscious entity, whom some call God exists. I have never disagreed with the notion that there may be a connecting life force or energy signature of some type amongst all living things. We are after all merely bags of water and chemicals constructed of the same elements when our conscioness and sentience is subtracted. But there are no indications from my observations that this force or signature is conscious. Quite the opposite becomes more evident when one is making these observations without the bias of belief tainting the conclusions.
posted by
gomedome
on September 1, 2006 at 9:31 AM
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Well, I don’t really truly know yet whether you are a believer in this
sense because so much of our communication has been tainted by discord and jostling. But certainly, this is much of what I’ve been trying to get to with you for so long. I would most likely consider you a believer if you could, after ample forethought, honestly do the following: (1) Define for me what it is that forms your utmost and highest direction in life, (2) Indicate to me that you have faith in this direction to the extent that you see it as right and proper for yourself and others, (3) Indicate to me that you are willing to praise and uplift it in the world, to the extent that you can.
And, just to frankly demonstrate to you that I’m not trying to trick you or anything like that, I will forewarn you that if you concede that something is utmost and highest in your life, you are bequeathing it, as you say, a “higher power”.
posted by
telemachus
on September 1, 2006 at 8:25 AM
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Odysseus - this is not a complete statement by you
"........I define “believer” as someone with a self-defined direction and faith in their direction." You have defined believers as much more than this. In your definition exists a mandatory belief in a higher power. If this were not the case, your abbreviated definition describes me. Do you consider me a believer?
I doubt it.
posted by
gomedome
on September 1, 2006 at 7:55 AM
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I don’t recall making that statement about the superiority
of believers, but I’m not so sure that I would wish to deny that. But you and I would only argue about it because you define “believer” as someone adhering to some mythological based religion and I define “believer” as someone with a self-defined direction and faith in their direction. Now, we both already know that I believe such self-defined direction has a homogenous expression in the consciences of all men and that I call that God. That, in a nutshell, is the apex of our differences.
posted by
telemachus
on September 1, 2006 at 7:35 AM
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Odysseus - one more time the point completely escapes you
I have never said that the notion of some human beings being inferior to others is not true. It most certainly is an observable fact. What I have said is that vocalizing these words to individuals, especially when using your own qualifiers as criteria, is extremely offensive. When this realization is taken beyond the boundaries of the differing physical statures, physical health and intellects of human beings, it is no longer simply an undeniable observation. When it begins to encompass an individual's beliefs and/or their chances at eternal bliss based on those beliefs, it is nothing more than a subjective opinion. One that serves to detract from the rights of others and elevate the individual vocalizing these opinions.
You have stated in the past that those who believe are superior to those who do not believe. You even ran a series of posts entitled: "The Atheist's Signature" where you attempted to elaborate on this premise. You can ramble on all you want about what you do not like about what I post but not once have I ever stated that I am superior to anyone.
posted by
gomedome
on September 1, 2006 at 6:52 AM
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Gomedome, do you mean to say that you’ve now reversed
your previous position and now think that all human beings are equal? After all, for quite some time now, day in and day out, you’ve constantly insulted the religious. Am I to understand that these insults were intended equally for yourself? Such juxtaposition is amusing.
The fact is that you even differentiate among people in this very post by using the term “hillbilly”, which I think is a northerner’s word for someone of lower strata. At any rate, it is a word that you,gomedome, have used to distinguish, differentiate, and segregate people; while in the same paragraph implying that you somehow believe all people to be equal.
Now you may believe that all people are endowed with certain inalienable rights, but that is quite a different thing then to suggest that they are all equal. The world is full of many vastly different people and some, like yourself for example, are quite intelligent, while others are dumb. Some have more patience than others and are less prone to sarcasm. Some are stronger, prettier, more spiritual, more intelligent, nicer, and more personable. Others are weak, nasty, rude, and sickly. It is a clearly observable fact, but obviously one that you wish to lure me into a debate over, as you have prominently placed this post…so let’s have at it. I do very much enjoy conversing with you.
By the way, you should know that my entire Sunday School class is, in fact, taking odds on you and I, each week, and these are the lines: (1) That gomedome will block Odysseus before the week is out, (2) That Odysseus will exhibit rudeness or stop being nice to gomedome before the week is out, (3) That Odysseus will convert gomedome before the week is out. Most people are betting on #1, some on #2, but, as you might expect, no one will take odds on #3. LOL
posted by
telemachus
on September 1, 2006 at 1:08 AM
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