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RckyMtnActivist - sometimes I think some of these people are playing
games.
They can't really buy this can they? The two notions implode one another. I've heard people recant these two notions in the same sentence. The God of love is going to damn the majority of his children to eternal suffering. ...and all of this retribution for the mere whisp of time that our life spans represent.....wow.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 9:02 PM
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Uh, Either these people are mixing their drugs
or they are from the forty-two percent illiterate in the US. LOL Seriously, it's unbelievable that they don't see the contradiction of this. Instead of blind faith maybe it should be called stupid faith! Oh and don't forget the suntan lotion! 
posted by
RckyMtnActivist
on August 31, 2006 at 8:40 PM
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Sunnybeach7 - it is so scary .. isn't it?
They are not kidding. It feels like a scene from an old B movie "the attack of the hallelujah zombies"
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 8:21 PM
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Actually my very first comment here began with an attempt
to show you an analogy between peoples tendency to, as you say, “wallow” and observable traits in nature. And I have very emphatically said that some human beings are indeed inferior and that also is an observable fact in nature. I have clearly stuck to the subject that I have raised. But, please, let me run, I see that your patience is starting to wane, as your sarcasm is starting to return.
posted by
telemachus
on August 31, 2006 at 6:50 PM
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gome
Unfortunately, I don't think they're kidding
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on August 31, 2006 at 6:16 PM
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Odysseus - this is typical of dialogue with you
You are no longer discussing the same issue, having flitted to something of totally different meaning. This discussion was never about some people's tendency to wallow in their situations or refuse help. Nor were we speaking of the observable realities of the figurative food chain in life. By using the words of others, you have implied that some human beings are inferior, expendable and exist solely to be destroyed. Now you've come up with some naive mumbo jumbo about you and I elevating others and helping them rise up? ...yeah, right, okay.....forget to take the meds today did we?
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 5:37 PM
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Well, I simply speak from my observations of what I see in the world.
Certainly, as you know, I encourage optimism, but I see people who are nonetheless resistant to it and who somehow relish in their plight. I would very much like for you and I to assist them and together elevate them and together help them to rise up, but some simply refuse to be helped. It is not any “belief” that I happen to hold, it’s simply an observable fact in life. Some move forward, some wither and die. This is an observable theme in nature that is difficult to ignore.
The quotes were provided to you because of their eloquence in conveying meaning. You know that I’m not a proponent for religious doctrine. I would also submit to you that much fiction, including religious stories and parables, can offer great meaning and insight into life, even if they should not be taken literally.
posted by
telemachus
on August 31, 2006 at 3:46 PM
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Odysseus - wow, you're not putting me on
It probably hasn't occurred to you that you have just quoted 2 works of fiction in an attempt to solidify your contentions but that is an aside. The truly sad part of this is that you may actually believe that some people are intentionally born into a hopeless existence by design and that you have somehow been chosen as an elite form of life. (or whatever it is that you are trying to say) I also find it incredibly humorous that someone can speak of enlightenment, as you have quite often, while harbouring this mentality.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 2:18 PM
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As hard as it is to swallow, it is in the testimony of nature,
perhaps Victor Hugo puts it best, in this quote:
There are souls that, crablike, crawl continually toward darkness, going backward in life rather than advancing, using their experience to increase their deformity, growing continually worse, and becoming steeped more and more thoroughly in an intensifying viciousness.- Victor Hugo
posted by
telemachus
on August 31, 2006 at 1:55 PM
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Odysseus - that is an example of why I write this post
The words in that paragraph convey a sick and unhealthy message. One that is inevitably going to be (has been) used by people to elevate themselves above others as it promotes a mentality of some people being deemed as expendable. Are you putting me on again? You don't really put any stock in ancient scribblings such as that do you?
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 1:39 PM
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I can elaborate further if you want...I don't want to overstay my welcome.
Romans 9:21-23
Surely the potter can do what he likes with the clay. Is he not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured, the other for common use? But if it is indeed God's purpose to display his retribution and to make his power known, can it be that he has with great patience tolerated vessels that were objects of retribution due for destruction, precisely in order to make known the full wealth of his glory on vessels that were objects of mercy, prepared from the first for glory?
posted by
telemachus
on August 31, 2006 at 1:16 PM
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Odysseus - does your comment actually make sense to you?
As you meander through comparisons of non sentient life to human beings, the point of this post seems to have almost entirely escaped you. I say "almost" because your closing line is my point but I'm not sure if you are addressing the importance of not carrying literal biblical translations too far to me.... or as a form of summary to what I am saying? The notion of some people being on a higher evolutionary plain than others seems to be the same thing as exclusivity based on religious belief but only approached from a different angle to arrive at self justification.
There is an inherent danger in this mentality, regardless at how it is arrived at. Any form of true enlightenment begins with the ideal that all human beings are created equal. If a belief in a higher power is your thing, this God of yours must have dealt every human being the same cards. There has to be a common element present amongst all of mankind. Sorry, but I just cannot buy that some people have no chance at eternal bliss by circumstances of geography, inherent lack of intellect, lack of opportunity or the historical time frame that they were born in. ....But let us just say for a moment that what you are implying is true, I'm sorry about your luck in not being able to get to heaven.....
I will try to put in a good word for you when I get there....
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 1:05 PM
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Just for the sake of argument, assume for a second
that the process of evolution is true. How many slithering serpents were condemned to writhe around upon their stomachs before legs emerged? How many legless fishes and other marine animals were forever submerged before life crawled forth upon the shore? How many brainless and spineless entities gasped their last in the primordial sand before intelligence emerged? Perhaps this will bring the statistics into better perspective. Truly, the evolutionary record demonstrates that only a few move forward, while untold others expire. And isn’t the lowly existence of the dung eating beetle something of a “hell” in comparison to ours? Or what about the slimy worm, forever writhing about in excrement? We must learn to sift out the meaning and benefit from historical literature without taking it too literally. Glean the beneficial from it and move forward, without getting trapped in a literal interpretation.
posted by
telemachus
on August 31, 2006 at 12:04 PM
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Xeno-x - I still get a kick out of some of the things I have read here over
the last few years.
My favourite is that because all sins are viewed as equal in the eyes of God, murderers and those who talk on their cell phones while driving are going to hell. It didn't seem to matter to the author of this gem that not all states and especially not all countries, have laws prohibiting the use of cell phones while driving. It still isn't law in my part of the world......are we all going to hell because Georgia or Alabama or wherever this person is from, has passed a local law? People are unreal sometimes, they are able to overlook the most glaring inconsistencies to make them fit with their beliefs.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 9:17 AM
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Sunnybeach7 -- it has always amazed me as to which people actually
think they have an inside track to heaven.
Like some of these people have to be kidding. Or are very good at lying to themselves.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 9:10 AM
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odd how people want to put themselves in a special category
actually the 144 k is Revelatoin -- angels holding back the 4 winds until the 144k were sealed -- only thing, these 144k came from the 12 tribes of israel -- so probably the commenter was not among those -- that person forgot to continue in the passage which mentions an "innumerable multitude" from all nations.
sometimes people just aren't real.
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 31, 2006 at 8:51 AM
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gome
Hahaha...Yeah. They find it a little hard to believe, huh?
Somehow many think that they are special, one of the VERY few, that will recieve such a gift. If that's how you can view it...as a gift. I'd rather spend my time with the majority. At least I'd be in good company.
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on August 31, 2006 at 8:45 AM
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sannhet - I've never understood the reasoning that allows people to
hold such contradictory notions within the same cranium.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 8:42 AM
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Sunnybeach7 - it was Mark Twain (I think) that said something to the
effect of:
(para.)..."Give me heaven for the climate, give me hell for the company I will keep."
I too find the entire notion of exclusivity ridiculous. It is an idea that may have worked in a very small, ancient and primitive world but we should know better by now. The funny part is that those who preach this stuff take enormous offence when I suggest that we are both going to the same place when we die.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 8:41 AM
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Bhaskar.ing - resolving the question has one of the two contentions being
discarded.
If an omnipotent creator being is in fact all loving, or a God of love if you prefer, damnation of the majority of souls ever born refutes this notion. It's easy for me, I don't believe this being exists as a conscious entity, nor do I believe that the majority of people ever born are damned for eternity. I throw both contentions away.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 8:36 AM
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Gome -
You're last two lines say it all.
posted by
sannhet
on August 31, 2006 at 8:33 AM
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gome
Great Post! This is one of the things that has really got to me. How can people actually believe something like that? Then at the same time, believe that God gave everyone free will, created everyone equal, and that everyone has a fair chance? Yeah, right!
With the pre-determined number, I would say that if there was such a God, that he has already pre-determined who will go where...so why bother?
I'll see you in hell, Gome. LOL
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on August 31, 2006 at 8:31 AM
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gomedome, the last two lines are really to be thought out and resolved. Yes
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on August 31, 2006 at 8:28 AM
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SuccessWarrior - that part cracks me up
When you see some knucklehead who is without any form of personal integrity and to whom honesty is a foreign concept, preach to others the path to salvation.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 7:55 AM
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cantey_1975 - that's the thing isn't it?
Whatever the number is, or whatever criteria is used to determine who gets in and who doesn't, against all odds and overlooking all of their own transgressions, those who preach this type of exclusivity have themselves pencilled in as one of the lucky few.
posted by
gomedome
on August 31, 2006 at 7:53 AM
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I've met some of them that aren't part of the 144,000
and I have to wonder why they continue to go door to door preaching. Their bible makes me laugh too. Not only do they have weird interpretations but they actually delete the scriptures they don't like. The number of the verse is still there followed by a dash.
posted by
SuccessWarrior
on August 31, 2006 at 7:34 AM
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Im sure that person
was among the 144,000.
posted by
calmcantey75
on August 31, 2006 at 7:23 AM
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