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Lensman - it's funny, right around the time I wrote this post, a muslim
community leader in Toronto stepped forward and made a statement:
It was something along the lines of; that the muslim community must do more to police its own. His take on this notion was more or less what I was implying in that if they do not do more to cooperate with western authorities, their community as a whole risks losing a great deal. Mind you, he never covered the idea of blending in with the societies that his constituents have immigrated to but more spoke in practical terms of impending realities versus what the community as a whole is doing now.
I look at the exercise that you and I are now engaged in. We are looking for "cracks in the plaster" as you put it. It is only a shame that we have to look for something that practicality and the responsibilities of all caring citizens of our countries, dictates should be evident. I still have visions of portions of the Arab/muslim world dancing in the streets with a jubilation instilled from the images of the twin towers collapsing. It doesn't matter what ideology an individual holds as the one true way to live or what their religious beliefs are, if any person can derive a sense of glee from the destruction of innocent people, there is something inherently wrong with them. The importance of separating themselves from their own community's extremist element lies in not only in doing the right thing as human beings but also in the inevitability of avoiding being painted with the same brush as the extremists.
posted by
gomedome
on September 4, 2006 at 1:27 PM
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Gomedome
Sorry to come back to an old topic, but in some ways it's still very relevant. Just wanted to drop you a couple of links to Australian news stories I've been reading today and last week:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20354699-5007132,00.html
Australia is dealing with the same kind of Muslim issues as we are, and recently their prime minister chastised that country's Muslim population for not attempting to blend in and become real Australians. As you might expect, he was received angrily by the Muslim leaders in Australia, exhibiting their usual, "quit picking on poor us" mentality instead of agreeing that integrating into the country they've gone to the trouble of immigrating to might actually be a good idea.
In an earlier comment in this thread, I suggested that short of annihilation, one solution to terrorism would be the conversion of the next generation of Muslims to western values. Last week, a young Muslim girl won a beauty pageant in Australia, again causing a huge uproar in Muslim circles. She's unswayed, however, and I find that encouraging.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,20265449-661,00.html
As you implied in your answer to me, this could take many years, but now I'm seeing the first cracks in the plaster. I believe the process is under way. And if it isn't already happening in Canada, I believe stories such as these in Australia will spread here and be of some influence. With the internet and word of mouth, they will also spread to the middle east. Let's keep our fingers crossed. Hey, let's also help spread these stories 
posted by
Lensman
on September 4, 2006 at 11:48 AM
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Gomedome
I hope I'm not coming across as some kind of pacifist here, because that's something I am not. I'm a peaceable guy (there's a difference) but I could kill an Islamist with a smile on my face, and you can take that to the bank.
As I said, I support the Canadian military in Afghanistan and I despise Islamists (which are distinct from ordinary, decent Muslims the way the Nazis were distinct from ordinary brainwashed Germans) and I'd love to see the Islamists wiped out. Any religious freak who can unfeelingly plot the mass slaughter of innocents must be seen for what he is....just a deadly disease in human form. I have no more compassion for him than I do for the Ebola virus. If we could nuke the ones who deserve it, I'd say go for it. I'm mindful of the ones who don't deserve it, though.
I'm also mindful of the fact that Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, etc., are encircled by Russia, China, India and Pakistan...all of them nuclear powers; however, not all of them stable or sympathetic to our cause. If we start lobbing nukes into their vicinity, who knows what kind of hell could break loose. The sky could be black with ICBMs. The fallout resulting from a nukefest of that scale would soon reach us in the west, causing the same kind of disease and death that a terrorist's biological weapon might bring.
I share your concerns, Gomedome, and I have others besides. It seems that famous Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times," has been visited upon us. I hope we can find a way to lift it. Let's hope there's a modern-day Einstein or Winston Churchill waiting in the wings. We're going to need them.
posted by
Lensman
on August 12, 2006 at 11:39 PM
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Gomedome
I'm on my way to work, but I have a couple more thoughts for later.
posted by
Lensman
on August 12, 2006 at 1:05 PM
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Gomedome, courtesy is given rather than being an obligation
but please forgive me because that's one area where I am old fashioned.
Re the discussion: if people in the West expect all of "them" ie moderate Muslims to band together against Extremists it is going to be our problem too because we regard them as failing if they cannot apply
our solution. We probably have no idea about how they perceive the problem. Like us they vary enormously in how they perceive the problem and what they think could be a solution.
posted by
Azur
on August 12, 2006 at 12:50 PM
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Lensman - that's the point - we are forced to discuss the unspeakable
How long do you think it will be before Iran lobs a nuclear device at another nation? (probably Israel) or before Osama Bin Loonytoon manages to use a viral agent or other form of WMD? It is sadly looking as if these things are inevitable. Do we sit and wait for these things to happen?
posted by
gomedome
on August 12, 2006 at 12:37 PM
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Gomedome
Inconsistencies such as these do reflect the enormity of the situation. The problem has become so huge that while nibbling at one edge, you may be missing something along another edge. Still, nibble we must. Termites can bring down a house.
There's no question that the nuclear option would speed things up, but what a price we'd pay. That's a Pandora's Box I'd like to see us stay away from. At least we're addressing the issue, though, and not running away from it. People are applying their minds and the internet has long arms.
There's a shortage of space here and we can only exchange thoughts in a limited way, but it's good that we are.
posted by
Lensman
on August 12, 2006 at 12:33 PM
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Azur - I do not consider you commenting on my post a "courtesy" that I must
return.
I have read your recent post concerning this a few hours ago, you have at least one more click on your hits counter to show this. But I did not see something that I could contribute in a comment which is my policy for commenting on the posts of others. I do not disagree with your thinking, for the most part the things you outline are the things that my mind naturally acclimates to. As for the inability to distinguish differing elements within the Muslim community or "lumping them all together" as you put it, you are correct in saying this is a problem.....for them. We must put the onus on the moderate Muslim majority to separate themselves from the extreme element within their community.
posted by
gomedome
on August 12, 2006 at 12:32 PM
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Lensman - you illustrate the inconsistencies I see in my own suggestions
and I am the first to admit that my ideas have gaping holes. I agreed with our troops going to Afghanistan, (I am also glad that the Chretien Liberal government had the balls to not get involved in Iraq) but in Afghanistan we see exactly how deep rooted the problem is and just how long it will take to implement any meaningful change over there. I cannot disagree with your thinking in this regard, education is the only cure for ignorance but can this globe survive the necessary time it will take for a societal evolutionary shift to take place in the Muslim world? Considering that most education of young Muslims currently involves propaganda depicting the western world as a force of evil, we have not even begun this task. Now we can add the length of time it would take to implement the new education systems to the length of time it will take for existing brainwashing to dissapate within the Muslim world. This is no longer 1, 2, 3 or even 4 generations. It could iterally take hundreds of years and this assumes that it could in fact be done. Sadly, the only thing I am certain of in this issue is that we do not have all of the time we need. One of these religious retards will force our hand, either with a nuclear device or an unprecidented attack involving WMD's.
posted by
gomedome
on August 12, 2006 at 12:19 PM
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Of course it is not working
it will never work while you work from the premise of seeking a solution in lumping that majority together. That majority is so diverse that it does not exist in the form you want it. It is exactly the same as lumping together everyone in the West of every nationality, economic circumstance and political persuasion.
I'll leave it here but you are very welcome to return the courtesy with a comment on my most recent post
posted by
Azur
on August 12, 2006 at 12:04 PM
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Gomedome
Aside from the various options mentioned in your post and this comment page, I can only think of one other way of dealing with medieval, hate-filled fruitcakes of this calibre, and that's by changing the way they think. Or, more correctly, the way their grandchildren think. While that may seem like a pie-in-the-sky dream, I feel it can be done. The drawback is that it would take at least one generation. George Bush was right about this....it will be a long war.
In our own society, since WW2, we've seen huge changes in our belief systems and teachings, so I know it's possible elsewhere. Sure, some changes have been for the worse, but not all.
The current generations of Islam (grandparents, parents and teenagers) are lost. They've been hopelessly brainwashed by their stone-age religious leaders into believing the most preposterous hogwash in order to ensure a continuous supply of martyrs (cannon fodder, others might say).
It's the upcoming generation which needs to be targeted. The seeds of doubt need to be planted so that they'll begin to question their elders and their loopy teachings. They need to be exposed to a more alluring, free and logical way of life. Such exposure will cause the first cracks in the plaster of oppressive Islam. This is what truly frightens the terrorist brand of Islamic leader today. For example, why else would the Taliban so ferociously prohibit such things as television, libraries, the internet, radio, theatre, western clothing and education for women, just to name a few? They know that, if allowed, the desire for such freedoms would likely spread like a virus through at least half-a-billion Muslims.
As I understand it, that was the intention behind sending Canadian troops to Afghanistan....to help ensure the building of a new infrastructure which would allow such freedoms. Schools, libraries, access to the rest of the world, etc. That is how this murderous mindset can be gradually eroded. I guess, for that reason, I'm one who still supports the notion of Canadian troops in Afghanistan.
Some might ask, why would we want to inflict our decadent, corrupt, excessive society on others? Well, that isn't the only side to our society. There's enough good in us to make it worthwhile, and I feel it's the lesser of two evils.
posted by
Lensman
on August 12, 2006 at 12:02 PM
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Azur - now your common sense approach is bringing us back to what we are
doing now...which clearly is not working.
In this post I make a point of stating 2 caveates, the first one when I call my own suggestions facetious, the second one when I state that I am the wrong guy to ask. The reason I do this is that I am trying to make it clear that this line of thinking is an exercise in attempting to think as the extremists do. Many suggestions and ideas, both mine and contributed through comments are unrealistic, some even nonsensical but all get away from proposed solutions that are based on our ideals. That ultimately is the point, our foe is using a different datum line, a different set of values and a different set of rules. Obviously the most desirable solution is to isolate the extremists from the peaceful majority but I feel that is even more impossible than any other game plan. At least impossible without the full cooperation of that majority, which as you know hasn't been happening.
posted by
gomedome
on August 12, 2006 at 10:47 AM
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Gomedome, thank you, however I think there is irrationality on both sides
and the main one is to group all people from a religion and number of countries together. If we tar the moderates in the same hue as the extremists we will push the former towards the extremists. Better that the moderates from all sides still have some hope of interacting. That will increase the difference between the moderates and the extremists. It is not love but it is a positive.
Most people, wherever they may be, simply want to live their lives.
You may not realize that I post on Blogit too and have a post on this topic too in Quiet Blogger .
posted by
Azur
on August 12, 2006 at 5:12 AM
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Azur - that is the best rebuttal that I have heard so far
absolutely everything you say is true and there is not one faulty bit of logic in anything you say but.....we have one side thinking in this rational and pragmatic manner. We do not have both sides in this struggle thinking like this. They will never quit, they will never accept a scenario of co-existence with other members of their species. It is only a matter of time before one of the tinpot dictatorships from that region of the world lobs a nuclear device in our direction.
posted by
gomedome
on August 11, 2006 at 10:30 PM
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You say that
the non extremist Muslim majority is not doing enough but first could you explain who you mean by that? Which countries? Which factions? Which economic circumstances? How will they classified in this new dictatorship and who will determine who is in and out? To expect such unity among people from many countries, of varying education and circumstance is as feasible as expecting the left and the right in any Western country to agree on basic issues. Do you see that happening any time soon?
There is no way that the world can be that way because some people always feel a need to assert authority even on a little old blogging site.
Do we want a world where a few determine everything for all of us? Yes I understand that many fear and feel that we must destroy them before they destroy us but the truth, in my opinion, is that between and within nations people will always slug it out - this is life on earth - and that the more one side ups the ante, the more the other will respond. That doesn't mean that a nation should not defend itself, far from it, but if a nation commits the ultimate act of aggression it must be prepared that the same will come right back at it. Build the fences to keep out predators but if we lose the farm in the process what have we gained? We must accept the possibility of losing as much as we put out
posted by
Azur
on August 11, 2006 at 10:16 PM
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cantey_1975 --that is so very well put
Your writing skills are racing ahead with your HTML coding skills, your personal skills base seems to be ever expanding. In your comment you are right: That is the point of venturing down insanity's path. If we are forced to, we must be able to defeat this enemy by playing the game of diviying up the earth better than they do. Send them all back to their homelands and give their nations back the holy lands. Its yours, you can have it, you have to sell your oil to someone, the holy lands are now officially Muslim territory. .......then we nuke the bastards.
posted by
gomedome
on August 11, 2006 at 7:41 PM
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threaten them
by declaring that Mecca will be wiped off the map if one more hair on an American's head is so much as cinged. Respond with such a terrifyfing blow that they will never break wind in the general direction of this country until the end of time.
nothing else seems to be working.
posted by
calmcantey75
on August 11, 2006 at 6:54 PM
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franciscan - not wearing the tin foil helmet tonight?
Your comment is about the craziest gibberish that I have ever heard. Are you doing this on purpose to annoy me? ..... But you know, fasting as a means of defending ourselves against them may be a good idea. We'll drop you off in Beruit, you try it and let us know how it works out......I was going to add something more but I'm laughing too hard.
posted by
gomedome
on August 11, 2006 at 6:23 PM
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I didn't adequately explain why that's a love answer. Self denial is a good
way to show our love for God.
p.s. If anyone wants to throw Matthew 6:16 in my face for my previous comments you'd have it wrong. My comments were instructive, not boastful.
posted by
franciscan
on August 11, 2006 at 4:44 PM
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Gomedome et al, [relax gome, means 'and others']
There is a love answer. God has given it to us repeatedly. I'll start with Esther chapter 4 verse 16. The jewish people were saved from extermination because Esther fasted. [I'm in a bit of a hurry tonight so these comments might be a little disjointed]. Pope John Paul the second " Jesus Himself has shown us by His own example that prayer and fasting are the first and most effective weapons against the forces of evil. [cf Matthew 4:1-11] Also Mark 9:29 "Some demons cannot be driven out except in this way" [Current info. courtesy of the late Father Al Lauer] King Ahab was freed from destruction by turning to fasting [1kg 21: 25-29] The Ninevites freed from imminent destruction through fasting [Jonah 3:5-10] Also Matthew 4:1. Strenght for victory and freedom from evil. Fasting brings renewal, Nehemiah 4:1.
The Virgin Mary tells us to fast on bread and water [Medgugorje apparition] on Wednesday and Friday. I experience the results from it. They're just as she said. It takes away fear. There's more peace in my heart in my family [when I give in to sweets the arguments start, trust me] and the Virgin Mary says in the world. Think why that would be true. On an indiviual basis it's pretty obvious why fasting helps one take away fear. One is doing something strong. One is doing the opposite of giving in to junk food because we're anxious or bored or depressed.
Do me a favor everybody, don't knock fasting on bread and water until you've tried it. It has done miracles for me for years. If you want to know more contact me.
posted by
franciscan
on August 11, 2006 at 4:36 PM
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TVBlogger - absolutely - group punishment is quickly becoming one of the
few remaining options.
It is really sad that it has come to this but no one is going to convince me that the non extremist Muslim majority is doing all that they can. In the aftermath of past transgressions by Muslim extremists, there has been virtually no outcry by the Muslim majority. Actions undertaken by the governments of Muslim countries has been woefully inadequate as well. We have come to a point in history where we can no longer tolerate the loss of life amongst our own to extend human rights to those who do not value these things as we do. Other options include a nuclear demonstration, nuke Medina (Islam's second holiest site) unless the protagonists come to the bargaining table with intelligent and reasonable demands. If they do not, follow through on the threat/demonstration with the clear understanding that they have but one more chance or Mecca is next. Again, I know that everything I am saying is absolutely insane but that is only in reference to our sensibilities and what we know is right. The only way that these people can ever be defeated is to become more ruthless and bigger, meaner bastards than they could ever hope to be.
posted by
gomedome
on August 11, 2006 at 2:13 PM
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I'm back with another idea
We were sitting here at work hashing over the whole situation. We were bitching about how horrible it will be to fly now that you're not allowed basic things like a bottle of water, visine (for us contact wearers), lip chap, etc. One of my coworkers brought up the point that it is indeed time to start profiling. He asked, "When's the last time an Israeli aircraft was attacked?" They profile. He has a point. At first I resisted, because i hate the idea of singling someone out because of their ethnicity or religion... but you know what, he convinced me with the reasoning that if you put enough pressure on the moderates, they will hopefully begin to police their own religion and deal with the radicals themselves. He might just be right.
posted by
TVBlogger
on August 11, 2006 at 1:22 PM
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TVBlogger - my thinking tends to lean more towards number 1.
The human race will inevitably be collectively forced to make a decision regarding the Muslim world. They feel they are fighting against a foe that has done them wrong in the foreign policies that you mention and in our trespassing on their sacred ground. Wholesale retreat from the middle east by all western influences is not unrealistic, it is inevitable and unfortunately for us to ever feel secure in our lives, it cannot stop there. We will have to complete the effort in isolating the Muslim world, including mass deportations from our soil of all who are citizens of the troubled regions and the blockade of all persons from those countries coming to our soil. To encourage our own citizens who have been born here but sympathize with Muslim extremists, we will have to ban Islam completely from being practiced in North America with the hope that our citizens who are Muslims would emmigrate to a Muslim country. Once we have isolated them and ourselves ....we nuke the bastards. I know what I have just said is completely insane but the other choice is equally insane and much less appealing.
posted by
gomedome
on August 11, 2006 at 9:54 AM
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I'm flawed, and so are my views on this...
I vacillate between two schools of thought on this:
1) Leave them to their hatred and killing of each other until they choose to have peace. They must want peace more than they want to be right. Therefore everyone should walk away from the Middle East and let them kill each other until they're sick of the pain. However, based on the past several thousand years, they seem to have a high tolerance of pain.
2) Let them wage their war on us without resisting them. I know this sounds crazy, but I believe that violence never brings lasting change. You cannot end violence with more violence. Yes, it would mean that I and many people I love would likely die or become enslaved to their rules but in the long, long, long term view, their time would end and be replaced by something better and more reasonable. True and lasting change in this world has only come about from nonviolence. That's my "peace, love and understanding" view anyway.
But trust me, I know neither of these is realistic or likely to happen. I too see no way to be at peace with these people. The thing that has come to my mind lately is that they claim this war with the West is, in part, being waged because of our foreign policies that keep them in poverty. And while I don't deny we have been brutal in many of our foreign policies, how much money are they wasting on waging their wars and rebuilding afterwards?
posted by
TVBlogger
on August 11, 2006 at 9:23 AM
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strat - it is sad that we are speaking this way
But all that we know to be right and decent are useless ideals against an irrational foe that will persist to an inevitable outcome of global disaster in the name of religious belief. It would be quite different if they had realistic demands or attainable goals but instead there is an element amongst them that has one singular objective in our destruction. We are left with a painfully simple choice...us or them.
posted by
gomedome
on August 11, 2006 at 9:15 AM
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I'm afraid my generally peace lovin' approach to life takes a back seat
in the case of the war on terror. I'm pretty much of the "wanna see Allah? Here you go" school of thought, which among other things, includes essentially turning the entire sandbox region into one giant sheet of glass.
posted by
strat
on August 11, 2006 at 8:56 AM
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Ariala - I've wrestled with my prejudice against them since I was there
back in the 70's.
Understanding that there are people in this world capable of killing others without remorse or consideration simply because they are of a different religion and/or political ideology must compell us to deal with this reality. If we do not adjust our thinking, we will continue to be victimized by them. They do not want what we want, their values use a completely different set of parameters and regrettably, this will never change. It is time in our history to take measures that are appropriate for the threat that we face.
posted by
gomedome
on August 11, 2006 at 8:52 AM
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Gome, I have to agree with you on that. They're impossible people. Their
ideologies are so that no peace talk with "infidels" is possible.
posted by
Ariala
on August 11, 2006 at 8:42 AM
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Ariala -- we are now being faced with realities
The very first thing that I will protest as loud as I can is any involvement by Canadian troups in Lebanon. Former US president Lyndon B. Johnson once said: "it should be Asian boys fighting and dying for the freedom of South Vietnam, not American boys" ...I'm afraid that is exactly how I feel about the middle east. Any further attempts to enforce a peace based on our values of life and liberty are going to be wasted efforts. The dynamics of the region must play themselves out. All forces should leave them to fight it out amongst themselves, they will do so in any event.
posted by
gomedome
on August 11, 2006 at 8:38 AM
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Gomey, I've always been someone who believes in peace, but I'm afraid
there seems to be NO WAY to deal with irrational groups with a terrorist mentality. Though I know you don't believe what I'm getting ready to say, but I now understand why God commanded certain groups to be destroyed back in the Old Testament.
posted by
Ariala
on August 11, 2006 at 8:28 AM
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