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posted by
A-and-B
on August 8, 2006 at 3:37 PM
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TVBlogger -- I agree - that is the basis of the twisted logic
There is always a problem in a society where ideology is mixed with social support. Some of the most ruthless criminal gangs in history have used this method of gaining grassroots support. In Hezbollah's case it is a bit different, they are only considered as criminals or terrorists by those whom they oppose. Nonetheless, their providing a social safety net is entirely self serving, as it their most important means of gaining a steady supply of recruits.
posted by
gomedome
on August 7, 2006 at 7:43 PM
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I can't understand either this mess either,
but I also know that Hezbollah has a strong social services branch. They provide food and money to those with nothing. They do their best to make sure no child does without in Southern Lebanon. I believe that is where a great deal of their support comes from. I think from the average Lebanese citizen's point of view, as of now, they don't really care how it started, they only see that Israel's response has been out of proportion to the offense, and therefore are driven to support the only organization fighting them. Twisted logic, but logic none-the-less.
posted by
TVBlogger
on August 7, 2006 at 7:36 PM
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HsanNedgo_ - those are all valid points but at what level does a simple
pragmatic perspective develop amongst the combatants?
When does one or more of the groups involved in this ongoing conflict begin to realize that the proliferation and escalation of violence accomplishes nothing more than to ruin their homelands? Religious passions, who did what to whom, or the need to inflict reprisals, does nothing more than leave them all living in rubble. These simple truths seem to escape them.
I have to agree that another UN resolution means nothing. There will never be peace in the middle east, there never has been. Even if the Muslim groups were given everything that they are demanding, I mean absolutely everything from the dissolving and relocation of Israel, to all non Muslim peoples leaving the region, it would only clear the way for the inevitable Shiite vs Sunni war.
posted by
gomedome
on August 7, 2006 at 7:10 PM
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I don't claim to understand them either, but I have read some stuff...
I think there are some strong cultural traditions in the Middle East that may possibly be clues.
One could be called "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." What has been going on between Israel and Lebanon/Hezbollah has a history. Israel occupied southern Lebanon from 1982 to 2000, almost 20 years. Based on what I have read and assuming I'm remembering it correctly, when Israel first entered southern Lebanon, it was not to attack Lebanese, but to stop the Palestine Liberation Organization from using Lebanon as a base for attacking into northern Israel.
Along the way, the Israel Army accidentally stepped on some Shiite toes. In particular, an Israeli column passed through a Shiite village on the Shia's holiest day of the year, when everyone in the village was out participating in a procession. The Shiite religious procession and the Israeli military column got all mixed up and in each other's way. I don't think anyone is sure as to exactly what started it -- maybe a Muslim got angry and threw a stone at an Israeli tank, maybe a Israeli soldier got spooked and fired his rifle accidentally -- but at some point the Israelis got scared and started shooting and killed a bunch of Muslims.
The Israelis also apparently detained a large number of Lebanese citizens in the process of trying to bring peace to southern Lebanon to protect Israelis in northern Israel. Hezbollah wants those folks released from Israeli jails so they fire rockets and kidnap soldiers in an effort to pressure Israel into releasing the Lebanese citizens in Israeli custody.
Hezbollah was formed in response to Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon. Israel had what looks to me like a rational reason for invading Lebanon -- stopping the PLO -- but in carrying out that seemingly sensible step, they created for themselves an enemy that has turned out to be more committed, tenacious, creative, and vicious than even the PLO was.
Another cultural principle in the Middle East is, "If someone hurts me, I have to hurt him three times as bad so he'll know better than to hurt me in the future." This tends to lead to constant escalation in the scope and intensity of the violence.
A third idea I've heard discussed is what might be called the "victim mentality." It says, "I have been so deeply injured and I am owed so much that it doesn't matter what I do. All my actions, no matter how violent or destructive, are justified because of what has been done to me and/or people I care about."
The long and the short of it is that both sides can point to injuries the other side has caused. There's little point at this late date in trying to figure out "who started it" or "who is at fault." Both parties are responsible and both parties feel justified in the actions they are pursuing.
Many Lebanese feel that Israel has wronged them and admire Hezbollah, whom they perceive as fighting for the rights of Lebanese people. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably feel similarly.
On the other hand, many Israelis see Lebanon as a lawless, chaotic place where criminals can hide out and shoot rockets at law-abiding innocents (the Israelis). From their point of view, the area needs to be pacified with as much force as it takes so that Israelis in the north can feel safe in their homes and towns. In their shoes, I imagine I'd feel similarly.
However, it seems to me that in a very real way, it doesn't matter whether you and I understand or not. We can't stop the conflict. Only the Israelis and the Lebanese/Hezbollah can do that. I don't believe that the conflict will stop until both parties want it to. The UN has been passing resolutions and imposing sanctions in the Middle East for over 50 years. The fighting has never stopped. How will more resolutions and sanctions change things?
Thanks for provoking my thoughts. :)
posted by
HsanNedgo_
on August 7, 2006 at 6:43 PM
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JanesOpinion - I didn't see it when he said that
All I have ever seen are his threats to escalate and strike further into Israel...but there is no doubt that he should have thought things through a little better.
posted by
gomedome
on August 7, 2006 at 6:12 PM
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Didn't the numbnut sheik himself say he underestimated the
Israeli response? Soooo, perhaps he should have thought things through a wee bit better?
posted by
JanesOpinion
on August 7, 2006 at 5:59 PM
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