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Gome
I suppose it's signs of the times. While living in Cuba, prior to banning religious education by Castro, I attended Catholic school but didn't experience the ruler treatment or any abuse for that matter. Perhaps, I was too cute to be smacked as a child. It was in the public schools here in the US when I first got slapped and paddled. So glad things have changed in both public and private schools. By the way, things are looking up in Cuba.
Melody
posted by
CunningLinguist
on August 8, 2006 at 7:52 PM
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ariel70- we are losing the war, there is absolutely no doubt about it
When the USA was speaking of invading Iraq back in early 2003, I remember saying to all that would listen; that there is no winning over there, at least not our idea of winning. It is still not too late to have a victory of sorts in the entire middle eastern region but to do so the word "victory" has to be redefined. Victory would now mean the most pragmatic of solutions for ourselves, for future generations, the middle east itself and ultimately for the planet we live on. To achieve this victory; all declared enemies of Muslim societies must retreat, or in other words relocate from the middle east. This includes all Jews, Christians and other non Muslims. There is plenty of room on the rest of the globe for these people. Now the Muslim world has what it wants, no interference with its affairs from the infidel, no infidels on sacred soil.
At this point the Muslim world has no more beefs with the rest of the world, there issues would be entirely internal but do you think for a minute that this would bring peace over there? Not a chance, this would only clear the path for the inevitable Shiite vs Sunni war. Our other choice is for the violence and bloodshed of today to become the status quo.
posted by
gomedome
on August 6, 2006 at 12:56 PM
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Gome
You are so right. It is as if these people are some weird alien form of life, dedicated to death and destruction ; like, say, the Borgs, in Star Trek. Maybe that's what we ought to call them " Borglims"
There is a war waging, and we are rapidly losing it.
posted by
ariel70
on August 6, 2006 at 12:30 PM
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ariel70 - in Muslim societies they do not know the meaning of the term:
"freedom of religious expression" . . peer and societal pressure on the individual is exponentially greater than it is in western societies pertaining to conformity of belief. I find it utterly amazing that human beings can be manipulated in this manner but if all facets of their lives, from education to social interaction, are controlled by their religion, it is little wonder that they are brainwashed beyond the ability to reason. One look at what the Hezbollah leader; Sheikh Hasan Nasrallah, has accomplished in 4 weeks should put any idea of reasoning with these people to rest. With an impossible goal of destroying Israel, he has rallied a segment of the Lebanese people to support his gang (that is really all that Hezbollah is, an armed gang) by picking a fight with an enemy that has a policy of reprisals and swift military action. Now that the environment of his supporters has been turned to stone age rubble (you can bet that he isn't living in squalor) his support is not waning and if anything is growing. How brainwashed is that? How far gone in their thought processes does an individual have to be to think that reducing their homes to rubble is something to be supported?
posted by
gomedome
on August 6, 2006 at 12:25 PM
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Gome et al
Uh, oh!! Not another gome post coming up! Run for your lives!
Only kiddin' of course.
Yes, sadly, you are too right. You know, an interesting survey was done recently in the UK, which showed that non-Muslims had a far higher degree of respect for Muslim than vice versa. So much for a racist society, eh?
And there was a surprising degree of disapproval of, for example, excessive alcohol consumption, and women wearing skimpy clothes, and acting immodestly among both groups. There was just 3% difference. So much for a decadent society, eh?
posted by
ariel70
on August 6, 2006 at 11:29 AM
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SuccessWarrior - I see a post coming up - this is an ideal subject
posted by
gomedome
on August 6, 2006 at 11:18 AM
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ariel70 - The blogger you speak of is not unusual in his part of the world
That is how they are brainwashed to think. They just don't get it and they never will. Countless millions from their part of the world clamour to gain entrance into western societies, but the reverse flow of immigration applications are but a trickle.
posted by
gomedome
on August 6, 2006 at 11:17 AM
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Ahh yes, the cute little rabbit.
One of the evil symbols of Easter. You might be on to something. I don't remember the whole story because it's a whacked out mess but I know the bunny and the eggs have something to do with the devil. The Christians stole the holiday but kept the evil symbolism. Really bizarre stuff.
posted by
SuccessWarrior
on August 6, 2006 at 10:52 AM
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Gome
Actually, Satan is currently wearing the human sheath of a certain blogger in here.
Thanks for calling in to my blogLOL
posted by
ariel70
on August 6, 2006 at 10:51 AM
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SuccessWarrior - when you think about it seeing Satan in a sinister looking
bug isn't very clever.
Satan wouldn't disguise himself as something that looked like it might represent him. He'd have a lot more luck if he disguised himself as a butterfly or a cute little bunny rabbit.....
posted by
gomedome
on August 6, 2006 at 10:42 AM
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ariel70 - we had the strap
A barber strap that was administered by the principle in a ceremonial fashion. Quite often in front of the entire school at the front of assembly (we lined up for everything). It was great when we had lined up to go back into the school after recess, it meant that we would stay outside for another 20 minutes or so.
posted by
gomedome
on August 6, 2006 at 10:38 AM
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TAPS- that's more like it, or at least how I remember it
The ruler was used far too much in my mind. To a point where when you knew that you had said or had done something out of line, you simply readied yourself for the inevitable wack. As little kids we quaked in fear at the thought of being wacked, but as we grew older and especially in grades 7 and 8 we were almost completely desensitized to its effects. It was more of a nuisance at that point.
posted by
gomedome
on August 6, 2006 at 10:32 AM
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Gomey et al
Oops! Got a bit carried away there! Senior moment, you know.
There was not so much random whacking-type punishment at our school ; well it wasn't very frequent.
No, caning on the hand was very much a formal ritual ; in manner a bit like an 18th century Naval flogging, and I have to say that I never detected any sign of Sister Schwarzennegar enjoying it.
posted by
ariel70
on August 6, 2006 at 9:32 AM
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Sucess
No! No! NO! you are so wrong! The offspring of that somewhat overheated, sulphurous gentleman, who is generally held to occupy the nether regions, from which mephitics vapours arise to destroy our peace of mind, are centipedes!
His small kids are sectional the ones about 3 to 4 inches long, and their big brethren and sistern are the serious dudes on the 'hood.
These guys are about 5 to 6 inches long, got deep red or pink hair ( Obviously wayward punk kids ) and they all bite or sting, and boy can those dudes move!
I know they're Satan's kids, 'cos I asked one one night, when I woke up and he was lying on my chest.Had quite a chat, actually. Just before I fainted.
posted by
ariel70
on August 6, 2006 at 9:28 AM
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gomedome, I was talking to Son #1 about this and his experiences. He is 45 years old and started kindergarten in 1965. He says that his first grade teacher carried a ruler and beat on heads and made bad boys hold out their hands for rapping with it. He says he got it a lot. I asked him why he never told me and he said, "because I deserved it. What was I supposed to do, come home and say, 'Mom I was a bad boy today'?" This was public school and this teacher was an old lady at that time ready for retirement.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 6, 2006 at 9:21 AM
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See, this is just so wrong. It was just a flying bug.
Everyone knows that Satan works through spiders and that they must be destroyed because of the evil that they bring. Damn you spiders, damn you back to the hell that spawned you?
Where can I get one of those yardsticks that are the samurai swords of ninja nuns?
posted by
SuccessWarrior
on August 6, 2006 at 9:16 AM
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posted by
A-and-B
on August 6, 2006 at 4:20 AM
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Bhaskar.ing - thanx for the kind words and thanx for stopping by
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 9:23 PM
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Gomedome,
I am a first-time visitor to your blog, and was pleasantly surprised to find a writer of such a racy, lucid, and delightfully humourous way of expression. I can promise that I'll be a regular visitor.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on August 5, 2006 at 9:10 PM
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I must add that boys who acted up were sent to the male principal. I have no idea what went on there.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 5, 2006 at 7:58 PM
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gomedome, I started to school in 1943, first grade, and I never saw any of the things that you mentioned. I had one teacher who had a grouchy face and frowned a lot but I never saw any abuse.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 5, 2006 at 7:57 PM
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TAPS- wow, I'm shocked, I was under the impression that you and I would
have gone to primary school within the same period of time. (that's a nice way of saying to a lady that we are about the same age) and that most schools of that era became enlightened towards coporal punishment about the same time....I guess not
Corporal punishment was routine at our school. I don't think I went one day without some form of wack in the head or on the knuckles....and as hard as it may be to believe, I wasn't a particularly bad kid. Others faced much more serious discipline. Kneeling in the corner was a biggy, the strap was used, ruler on the hands as well but mostly just wacks in the head.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 7:34 PM
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Nothing at all like that, gomedome. There was one woman teacher that lost her job for losing her temper and throwing a fourth-grade boy against the wall of the classroom but it was a one-time thing and she was fired.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 5, 2006 at 7:10 PM
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Lensman - I have never really had any first hand experience with sexual
misconduct while in the catholic mission school either.
Most of my knowledge of it is revisionist in nature, as for the most part I was oblivious to what was going on aroudn me at the time. My examination of it all in recent years being propigated by the fact that I was named as a witness (never called) in a lawsuit brought against them. I did have a priest make a pass at me back then but didn't recognize it for what it was at the time and through dumb luck, it never amounted to anything. Many others were not so lucky. We were the dumping ground for all of the catholic church's misfits, the ones fleeing from prosecution in other countries.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 6:58 PM
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Gomedome
Nice piece of writing, done in an interesting and concise way. As for the content, I've been on the receiving end of Catholic corporal punishment myself, both by the nuns and the Christian brothers, here in Vancouver. A math book (basically a block of wood) across the head is one I remember. I also nearly had my neck broken by our football coach (now a brother but a former paratrooper) whose favourite tactic, if we didn't get up fast enough for his liking, was to bend and yank us up by our facemasks. I have to say, though, that in all my years of schooling by the nuns and brothers, I never witnessed nor experienced any sexual misconduct. Just my experience, of course. Mind you, the nuns used to peek through the door into the boys' washroom while we tended to our business. Even at the age of eight, I used to find that weird.
posted by
Lensman
on August 5, 2006 at 6:40 PM
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Gome, I don't have time to get into this right now, dinner is calling, but
I will be back in the morning, and hopefully sharper and able to distinguish points A from B. Have a good evening.
posted by
Blanche.
on August 5, 2006 at 6:37 PM
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Blanche01 - adressing your second point first >>>>>>
It would be unfair to say that religious folk of extreme ferver are delusional simply because of what they believe to be true and even possible. Religious belief in cases of persons that are extremely delusional is simply a fuel for their delusions. It is safe to say that if people prone to delusions were subjected to any other influence that is as all encompassing to the degree that religious belief is, that they would derive delusions from that influence in the same manner.
Now as for your first point; in fairness, it should be mentioned that this type of schooling was not unusual 70, 80 or 90 years ago, it only stands out because the institution that practiced it did not change with the times and found itself teaching students this way just 40 years ago.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 6:33 PM
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TAPS- are you saying that you didn't have corporal punishment when you were
in primary school?
We sure did. With all of the head and knuckle wacking backed up by a carefully orchestrated psychological warfare. If you didn't do well on that test, you were going to hell, if you didn't know your catechism, you were going to hell, etc etc.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 6:23 PM
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Gomedome,
TAPS just brought up a point I'd completely missed: the object lesson of "behave or you'll be squashed like a bug" (literally). I can't imagine the mindset of terrorizing children like that. That doesn't seem at all amusing.
I'm glad your experience confirms my intuition, that those who had religious delusions would have had mental health issues anyway, that just happened to be there outlet. A scary one, though.
posted by
Blanche.
on August 5, 2006 at 6:18 PM
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I'm laughing, gomedome, but, actually it is sad because it is so unnecessary. I don't remember any of my teachers ever having a continuous extension of their hand--only a pointer at the blackboard and it was left there.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 5, 2006 at 6:11 PM
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TAPS- absolutely and the message was not lost on us
There is not doubt in my mind, that once the flying bug was dispatched, that there was not a kid in that room who didn't understand that they could be next.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 6:08 PM
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gomedome, It sounds to me like Sister Neverhadaman or whatever the name was, was using the insect as an object lesson to show her students what could be done to them with the ruler if they didn't straighten up and fly right. Though my family all attended public schools, we lived for many years across the street from the playground of the catholic school. The nuns supervising the play area always had something in their hands that looked like it might be a ruler.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 5, 2006 at 5:55 PM
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ariel70 - that puts you 6 hours ahead of us
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 3:07 PM
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Blanche01- that's not the question I would ask, or how I would put it
When you say: "Where does the faith to believe and lead a good life out of moral and spiritual conviction differ from outright delusion?"
Faith to believe, leading a good life of moral and spiritual conviction and delusion, are 3 mutually exclusive aspects. Those who have faith in whatever (I am assuming that you mean religious faith) do not necessarily lead a life that denotes moral and spiritual conviction in comparison to those who do not have the same religious faith. It has also been my experience that the delusional people of this world can use religion as a fuel for their delusions but they would be people with mental health issues in any event, whether they had faith or not.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 3:06 PM
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Night, Ariel, always a pleasure
posted by
Blanche.
on August 5, 2006 at 2:58 PM
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Gome an' Blanche
Midnight, an' I'm off to bed. Have a nice day/evening/night
CU.
posted by
ariel70
on August 5, 2006 at 2:57 PM
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Gome
Yep, similar, I guess. And that because, altho' it ws in a big conurbation, nobody was interested in reform. Heresy, sir, heresy! Out with the round ruler!
posted by
ariel70
on August 5, 2006 at 2:55 PM
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ariel70 - it is very likely that your school in the 30's was very much
like my school of the 60's.
The one I attended existed in one form or another for 350 years in the same remote location. It being away from the rest of society and under the control of the catholic church meant that school reform, or even changes in curriculum, were decades behind the times.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 2:52 PM
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Gomedome, funny I just had a conversation about Andrea Yates,
and her psychotic delusions about demonic possession leading to drowning her own children. Where does the faith to believe and lead a good life out of moral and spiritual conviction differ from outright delusion?
posted by
Blanche.
on August 5, 2006 at 2:50 PM
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Gomey et al
Yep like release from Auschwitz lite.
posted by
ariel70
on August 5, 2006 at 2:47 PM
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Blanche01 - yeah, it was pretty serious as far as religious indoctrination
goes.
...and I'm the first one to admit that I may in fact be on a mission of some sort. Something deep down compells me to keep an eye out for religious crazies. Something ingrained or an inherent instinct, motivates me to give them a good clubbing up side the head when they become too aggressive with their craziness.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 2:46 PM
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Sunnybeach7 -- I don't consider it a shame, at least from my perspective
It was an experience that caused some distress at the time and possibly a bit in later years but I feel that it was one of the best things that could have ever happen to me. Once out of their clutches and away from their influence, life in general takes on an entirely new perspective. Everything in life is appreciated to a much greater degree.
posted by
gomedome
on August 5, 2006 at 2:41 PM
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gome
It's a shame your childhood was spent this way. Although, it does provide quite a bit of humor as you tell it now.
Actually, I think this would make a incrediblly humorous short film. LOL. You may be able to get rich off of something like that.
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on August 5, 2006 at 2:22 PM
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Blanche and Gomey
Yep, I had ten years of ruler whacking nuns back in the 1930s, until i left scjool at 14
Still got the scars LOL
posted by
ariel70
on August 5, 2006 at 1:54 PM
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Gomedome, I've heard stories of ruler-thwacking nuns before,
my heathen boyfriend went to a Catholic school "for the education", but that is a classic. I can picture the Ninja nun, eviscerating that bug and yelling, "Out, out, damned bug!" I knew you had to have had some serious "religious instruction" to fuel your zealous mission to enlighten us against the evils of religion.
posted by
Blanche.
on August 5, 2006 at 1:34 PM
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