Comments on A truckload of hokum called the bible

Go to Religion in the Modern World - Add a comment - Go to A truckload of hokum called the bible

Melody - I responded to your comment in a post

posted by gomedome on July 28, 2006 at 7:35 PM | link to this | reply

Gome, I am commenting on your comment ....

posted by CunningLinguist on July 28, 2006 at 2:53 PM | link to this | reply

gomedome

Oh in one point you are so wrong. I certainly have considered how people came to hate the Christians. I have known people I could easily see why they hated any religion. Religion has hurt so many people. I for one happen to believe that is not the whole of it. But I hate what has done to so many in the name of Christian but those who are calling themselves that will find out they were very wrong. I followed all the Joseph Campbell Christian/Mythology compairsons. I have studied many religions. I was not discrediting what you were saying but that you lumped Christians into the ignorant place as you have rightfully so lumped the Christians into the believing they were better than nonbelievers. You know I don't believe that and I hope you do not think I am ignorant.

posted by Justi on July 27, 2006 at 2:36 PM | link to this | reply

Schatz - That is why I use the term: "The sum total of mankind's wishful

thinking"

Of course the striking similarities as found in mythology predating Christianity are there as a means of validating the Christian versions of these stories. ....sure they are. If the mind wants this to be true, it will become true. It is all a result of brilliantly manipulated perspective and bias but the observer must be in the clutches of religion for this to work. Until they have other influneces in their lives, they will never see another perspective.

posted by gomedome on July 27, 2006 at 8:51 AM | link to this | reply

Xeno-x - stopping short of suggesting that there is some form of universal

consciousness, there are certainly some common influences at work.

The single biggest influence has to be the bias instilled in the minds of the observer of history by the widespread and pervasive effects of Christianity. When all observers of history, which can include all of the scientific disciplines, have as their datum line or point of reference; the stories from the bible; it is little wonder that so many similarities are found in ancient mythology. Everyone is looking at this ancient history through the same set of lenses.

posted by gomedome on July 27, 2006 at 8:44 AM | link to this | reply

pkcricket

I did not say all Christians, I said "the vast majority" which does leave exceptions.  I think you have to admit that "the vast majority" of Christians have not had the level of education you describe or are able to read texts in their original language.  I know of three Christians who fall into that category and they are pastors.  While there is a small percentage that is curious and will look deeply for the truth, the vast majority of butts sitting in those pews don't look past what their leader tells them.  Most never delve into what THEY believe but instead accept what they were taught, as truth.  If you don't fall into that category, if you are one of those exceptions, if you are certain of who you are and what you believe, then I can find no reason to be highly offended. 

posted by TVBlogger on July 27, 2006 at 8:25 AM | link to this | reply

So cricket says....

.....the sharing of the core beliefs of Christianity in other religions does not point to duplication, but rather the reality of those core beliefs.

But then, how can only Christians be destined for 'the kingdom of Heaven' if the other religions share the core beliefs? It's all so fairy tale-ish and cult-ish to me. Believe only us, give us your money, don't question authority, oh, and be loving, giving and kind. Also, prostrate yourself before me in worship.

Ugh. I just can't see it.

posted by Schatz on July 27, 2006 at 7:42 AM | link to this | reply

the Jesus epic

mother and child, death and resurrection, virgin birth -- all these have been demonstrated to have had their origins in Near East mythology -- Isis and Osiris -- and Norse, etc, religions that predate Christianity by at least a millennium  -- so it should be no surprise that some elements of Krishna just might be found in Christianity --now I'm reminded of George Harrison's MY SWEET LORD and the transformation from hallelujah to Hari, Hari, and to Hari Krishna.

problem with adding all these onto the Jesus story -- they detract from the real story -- you elminate these and any supernatural, you  find a story of substance -- a very strong personality - teaching that takes our dealing with others a big step farther. 

could be some sort of consciousness that permeates and transcends human cultures (?)  -- don't know.  just throwing something out there.

posted by Xeno-x on July 27, 2006 at 7:33 AM | link to this | reply

pkcricket - I use qualifying statements such as this for a reason

"It is most likely a fabricated fable but at the very least; the Christian version is no more credible than any of the others" .....I have also made a point of stating numerous times that there are many pitfalls in using ancient doctrine, writings or chronicles to determine the validity and accuracy of events. The great flood story? I have to correct you on that one: where stories of a great flood appear in numerous ancient mythologies and verbal traditions around the globe, the version that has the human race populated via incest, or the prodiginy of one favored man and his wife is unique to Christianity, at least to my knowledge. One version from native mythology has bears (considered superior beings to humans) chasing all living creatures to higher ground during what is referred to as "the watery chaos". When considering the different versions of this story, it is reasonable to conclude that they have a basis in real life events but not necessarily one singular event. Massive flooding of specific regions has taken place countless times on this planet throughout history, it still takes place. Imagine what the perspectives would be and how the story would be chronicled, if a person from ancient times was in the New Orleans region during Katrina. There was no means of global communication back then, any large scale natural disaster could be considered as the gods or God, punishing mankind by wiping the slate clean.

I may address more of this in a post. 

    

posted by gomedome on July 27, 2006 at 6:38 AM | link to this | reply

Gome...

There's so much I want to address here, and my miind is still not awake, so I forgot something.  First, I will admit that Hinduism itself is older than Christianity, but I will not say that their writings are as well.  As far as the validity of my argument...if one accepts that nothing is true, then where would one stand?  You have taken a stand, and so have I.  Just because you do not believe my stance to be true doesn't mean you will convince me of it.  I have found, tested, and proven my foundation...with the same deductive reasoning (hopefully) as you have taken with yours.  Just by saying it is a farce does nothing for me, nor does it make me believe my arguments for it are pointless.  I'm not offended until someone questions my intelligence, or says something derogatory against me.  I understand people, even some Christians, do not believe the way I do, so I take religious discussion as simply that, discussion...until it becomes clear someone really wants to learn about it.  (Plus, I only argue on what I feel qualified to argue...some things you bring up [in previous posts], I've not studied or encountered...but I am now that I know the question's out there.) 

I also think that the sharing of the core beliefs of Christianity in other religions does not point to duplication, but rather the reality of those core beliefs.  Practically every culture in history, in their history, has an account of a great flood with only one surviving man or family, protected by some kind of god...I don't see this as duplicity, but as a sign of truth in that occurence.  I hold the Bible as true, so I can see that all these would be the other religion's take on that event.  That's just one example...sorry, I'm running out of time, or I might put some more up here.  Thanks...Cricket ><>

posted by pkcricket on July 27, 2006 at 4:33 AM | link to this | reply

TVBlogger...

My problem was that you made a blanket statement about Christians without clarifying that there were some who are an exception...rather, not some, but rather a lot. 

GOME...I am not Catholic.  I think there is a lot Satanic and anti-Christ in the Catholic faith.  But I don't believe that all the people in the Catholic church are lost without hope.  The faith itself does not encourage study in any manner, except to learn what your priest teaches you.  I think that's wrong on many levels.  Jesus never condoned that kind of religion...practice without understanding.  That is why i think there are so many obvious pagan things in Catholicism and no one within the church really questions them.  Transubstantiation is a good example.  Also, the worship of Mary, Jesus' mother, and the worship of the "saints." 

SUNNY...I don't have time to look for the link this morning, since I have to be at work in about half an hour, but I will look throughout today and let you know what I find.  K?  Cricket ><>

posted by pkcricket on July 27, 2006 at 4:20 AM | link to this | reply

wow pkcricket

I would like you to point out where I put you in any category.  I would also like you to show me where I said you were ignorant or stupid.  If you lumped yourself into a category you didn't fit into, that's hardly my doing. 

posted by TVBlogger on July 26, 2006 at 9:56 PM | link to this | reply

pkcricket - holy moly - you are in need of deprogramming

The catholic church embraced pagan traditions to fill the pews with pagans . . . tithing pagans. Take a look at the picture below and tell me what you see?

I see an old frail geezer of limited physical strength and failing mental faculty waving a pagan icon at 1/6th of the world's population. He is the head of a criminal organization that is worth trillions of dollars because they never let up on this type of particularly effective recruitment ploy. The big chunk of gold he has in his hand has a little bitty chunk of bread in it. This object is called a "Monstrance" or an "Ostensorium" and if this little bit of showmanship isn't enough there is more.  Catholics believe this wafer of bread turns into the actual body of Christ when consecrated during the Mass.

....nope nothing pagan around here, everyone knows that the catholic church was "combating" paganism. ...wow. 

posted by gomedome on July 26, 2006 at 9:00 PM | link to this | reply

pkcricket -- that is a valiant attempt at a defense of Christianity

I will give you credit for that but you are working on an assumption that the argument you present is valid. Give a religion older than Christianity some due respect in the preservation of their dogma.  In effect you begin fueling another very valid contention against the validity of Christianity. If so many religions of the world carry so many similarities in icons, events and other general myths to those of Christianity, it demonstrates just how much the Christian religions have polluted the world's religions and cultures over history. It becomes either the argument that all perceptions and interpretations of the observer of history are biased, or the similarities do in fact exist. I tend to think it is a mixture of both.

posted by gomedome on July 26, 2006 at 8:43 PM | link to this | reply

Cricket

I haven't heard anything about purgatory being a pagan thing.  Do you have a link or something that I can look at for this?

I haven't heard of this one before, and most pagans I know don't believe in sin, or anything bad happening upon the expiration of the physical body....so I'm curious to where this comes from.

posted by Afzal_Sunny7 on July 26, 2006 at 8:28 PM | link to this | reply

TVBlogger...

I will concur that many Christians are ignorant of the deep things of the Bible, or even how to argue for or against it...BUT, please do not put me in this category.  I am young, but I have worked hard to study and get as much of an unbiased research as possible.  Granted, I am a Christian, have been since I was a child, but that does not negate any doubt that has occured in my growing up or any investigation I have interred to understand.  There are many things a "church" will preach that I don't buy, because I've found that it doesn't come close to what the Bible is really saying...the benefit of knowing one of the original languages.  Yet, there are many contradictory things in the world that so boldly declares itself as "right" that I have found to be laughable...they offer one solution at the expense of another, yet to prove the second, they slaughter the first.  I have found the Bible to offer the most solid answers with no contradiction.  Do NOT say that is because of my ignorance or stupidity, because I highly resent that.

SUNNY...many of the "shared" pagan festivals and emblems and whatnot that are found in Christianity were an attempt of the Catholic Church to combat those influences.  It was not the right way (I don't think) to try to "win" pagans to Christianity.  Baptism, by sprinkling, of little babies is a pagan ritual, not spoken of in the Bible.  Purgatory is another thing...it's a pagan concept adopted by the Catholic Church.  A lot of that occured when Constantine made Christianity the state religion of Rome.  All those people did not just throw out their religious practices, but they did start calling themselves "Christian."  I don't think that was right at all. 

Cricket ><>

posted by pkcricket on July 26, 2006 at 8:20 PM | link to this | reply

Justi - yes they do run in different circles

That is the entire point of this posting. You cannot gain anything but a completely slanted perspective unless you run in "different circles", at least some of the time. There is another perspective as to how the Christian religions are viewed. Some of us feel as if we have escaped it clutches and it is my bet that you have never considered why some people feel this way.  It is not because we are defective mutants that were raised as children in nuclear garbage dumps, ....as we may have been represented to you by so called spokespersons for your religion. It is because we feel we have seen the failures of religion and religious belief, ...some of us first hand. Suffice it to say that it will take some fortitude on your part for you to not be offended by this discussion. .....But I am confident that you have it in you.

One safe bet that you can make, and I think that you know this already, is that when I hear such nonsensical talk such as end times and armageddon, that I will dust off my wooden Christian bopping mallet. When I am forced to share the planet with those that speak in a cavalier manner about blowing it up, ..... I just become funny that way.......

posted by gomedome on July 26, 2006 at 8:19 PM | link to this | reply

I have to say, I'm impressed with the research...although, I too have heard and studied the Hindu religion in regards to Christianity.  The story of Krishna...that actually post-dates the story of the Bible.  The Hindu scriptures claim it to have happened before Christ, but the Hindu scriptures did not become actual documents until well after the Bible had already been written down and established in the Canon it is today.  Actually, the Hindu writings were mostly formed by tradition, and the "rememberings" of the priests and Brahmins...doesn't seem as reliable a resource to me.  The fact that the story resembles so much to the story of Jesus Christ doesn't send a red flag, for me of Christianity, but rather of Hinduism.  It's said that one of the apostles went into India after the diaspora from Jerusalem.  He would have certainly carried the message of Jesus' birth into the country with him and the priests must have duplicated the story to fit their own beliefs.  It is, after all, no hard thing for gods to be added to Hinduism.  Cricket ><>

posted by pkcricket on July 26, 2006 at 8:09 PM | link to this | reply

TVBlogger you and Sunny run in different circles than I do I guess.

I know the origns, the present and the future to some degree of it.

posted by Justi on July 26, 2006 at 7:42 PM | link to this | reply

Justi

It is my experience from the 25 years within the faith that the vast majority of Christians are completely ignorant about the origins of their beliefs.  They are also completely ignorant that much of what they are taught in the modern American Christian church is popularized myth and early Christians would find little in common with today's believers.  Who said Christians are ignorant slugs?  What I have witnessed from my friends and family and briefly from myself, is that it is far more comfortable to just turn off the questions and follow along blindly. 

posted by TVBlogger on July 26, 2006 at 7:33 PM | link to this | reply

I have also seen much of this.

The things I find the most interesting is the fact that most Christian holidays can be traced to Pagan origin.
I find it humorous that Christianity can make so many accusations about Pagan being evil and bad, yet they stole so much from them.

posted by Afzal_Sunny7 on July 26, 2006 at 6:36 PM | link to this | reply

gomedome

hummmm could it be that the superiority you have referred to often is being worn by another foot? I consider myself educated. It cost me a lot and I did a lot of work. I have studied other religions I know what you are talking about. Comments, as well, tend to  portray all Christians as ignorant slugs. You know better. Are you and the first commenter not putting up a 'better than those Christian' message'? I thought that was what you accused us of.

posted by Justi on July 26, 2006 at 6:36 PM | link to this | reply

keep up the good points

posted by Xeno-x on July 26, 2006 at 3:18 PM | link to this | reply

TVBlogger - I agree,.... and sometimes I wonder why I bother

Yet again I had another person going on about something that is written in the bible. As if it means anything to me and as if it is the most reliable source of information on the planet. I just get sick of these people, they have no desire to actually learn anything, or even know of what they speak.

posted by gomedome on July 26, 2006 at 2:04 PM | link to this | reply

Good advice, but...

it's unlikely any born-again believer will follow it.  Getting out more and educating yourself can lead to the painful process of questioning the very foundation of your beliefs.  Growing up is painful so it's far easier and more comfortable to just close your eyes and believe as you were taught.  One of the many verses I wish today's Christians actually followed is "Seek and ye shall find."

posted by TVBlogger on July 26, 2006 at 1:47 PM | link to this | reply