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Talk about coming late to a conversation...!
I am just going to respond to this over in my Universe Blog... But I can see I will have to be going back through some of your bloggings...
posted by
Ciel
on June 26, 2008 at 10:03 AM
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MountainClimber,
far be it from me to dissuade you! If you see those events as miracles, that's fine!
I am not against faith! All I am saying, really, (and that applies to the debate we had on your blog as well) , let's not foolishly mix
faith and
science, belief and
knowledge. They belong to different realms of the mind!
posted by
Nautikos
on July 19, 2006 at 4:30 AM
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Nautikos, I believe in miracles for I have experienced so many of them,
I can not even begin to relate them, but I will share two: Last summer, I fell 50 feet down a mountain slope and came within a body length of going completey over the cliff. No one saw me fall, my body was broken, wracked with pain, bleeding, and I still had to climb back up fifty feet -- I could not do do, I cried out to God, and He said put your hand in my hand and I will lead you up -- He did and when I got about 3/4 of the way up, there were two angels (young men) there to pull the rest of the way -- A few months ago my wife had major surgery and she was only to be in the hospital for 5 days, complications set in, and the doctor said, you may have to stay 2 weeks or longer -- In the name of our God we spoke to her body and declared its healing, and she was home, well and recovering within a few more days -- Do I believe in miracles, yes, because I believe in a personal God!
posted by
MountainClimber57
on July 18, 2006 at 10:02 PM
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muser,
thanks again for your comments, and you're right, it is a vast subject, and I may indeed write more on it...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 18, 2006 at 6:03 AM
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Nautikos, I think this subject is so vast there will hopefully be many more
posted by
muser
on July 17, 2006 at 1:55 PM
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muser
thanks for your remarks and also for your wishes which do not offend me at all, knowing that they are offered from the heart and with the best of intentions. Unlike others of my ilk, I have no problem with 'Faith' in general or Christianity in particular, and I am often puzzled by the high degree of animosity towards either being expressed by non-believers. (What has even more surprised me at times are the hatreds raging among believers, e.g. that harboured by some born-again Christians for Catholics. I have heard them describe the Pope as the Great Satan, and not in jest!)
But when it comes to 'miracles', I can only approach the subject from the point of view of someone attempting to understand it phenomenologically, if you wish. But what is the phenomenon? The phenomenon for me is not 'a miracle', which would mean I would have had to accept it as such, but rather {people-naming-some-experiences-miracles}. What's in brackets is the phenomenon. The interesting questions then are, for example: what are the experiences (or phenomena from their points of view) that lead them to call something a 'miracle'? Are their different 'types' of miracle? (I believe there are, by the way). What must people know or believe prior to naming a phenomenon or experience a 'miracle? There's a lot of potential here for another interview! 
posted by
Nautikos
on July 17, 2006 at 4:41 AM
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Also, Nautikos,I really liked your interview! I especially agree with
Corbin Dallas' assessment of conversion, and his pragmatic view toward the conversion experience of others. I, however am verbose, and will add a few comments of my own. First, I will tell you that I have always loved the questions more than the answers/non-answers... and in light of what I believe...and have experienced with the Divine Mystery Whom I call God/Christ/Holy Spirit, it is my wish that you will have a similar experience...an experience so intense, so extraordinary, so overwhelming, and transforming that you will only be able to answer the questions exploding in your mind with the answers left in your heart...the result of your spirit being touched by something Greater than yourself...a Presence that you will never fully understand but One that you can never deny.
I hope you will not be offended by my wishes... I think that someone of your intellect ...and curiosity would welcome such an experience!
posted by
muser
on July 17, 2006 at 12:28 AM
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muser,
sorry, I forgot to mention the other bit, namely that I was just trying to clarify what we mean by saying something is a 'coincidence.' Now, in some cases people might accept a 'coincidence' as an 'explanation', (ask no further questions) in other cases they might not. And what's an explanation? Well , an explanation is a statement that answers your question and settles things
to your satisfaction. (Those last three words are critically important!
posted by
Nautikos
on July 16, 2006 at 7:41 PM
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muser,
I am a 'Freudian', (in the sense that I have a greater affinity to Freud's work) not a 'Jungian', and to Freudians the existence of the 'collective unconscious' has not been demonstrated satisfactorily...
Aside from that, it isn't clear to me how that relates to the way in which people decide that an otherwise inexplicable event is a 'miracle'...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 16, 2006 at 7:31 PM
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Hi Nautikos, just checking in for a moment...have you read Carl Jung's
thoughts on synchronicity, and the collective unconscious? Maybe you and Blanche01 were discussing this? Back to work..
posted by
muser
on July 16, 2006 at 6:49 PM
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Blanche,
thanks, and you're absolutely right, there's a lot more to this, and I am tempted to write more on this topic.
Having said that, I don't think that a 'coincidence' is an explanation of anything. It is simply stating that a) two events occured 'together' (although they may also have occurred in sequence, and may appear to be causally related), b) that there is no causal relationship between them , and c) that they do not have a common cause either. When we say that x and y are 'simply a coincidence', we mean there is no point in examining a seeming connection. But it does not mean that we might not want to examine x and/or y separately.
posted by
Nautikos
on July 16, 2006 at 3:47 PM
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muser,
thanks for the comment! I checked out your blog - very interesting. Of course, Littlewood talks about the
number of occurences that might be called miracles, rather
than the criteria or beliefs people use to decide whether something is a miracle or not...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 16, 2006 at 3:32 PM
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Nautikos, there is a lot to think about here concerning "miracles"
and "mysteries". Learning to live with ambiguity and mystery certainly can be uncomfortable. However, I do believe in a series of unexplained events, too coincidentally or synchronously timed, as to be explainable by coincidence. Particlarly if said events happen more than once. That is the closest I can come to defining my own version of a "miracle". which, I will go ahead and say it, "Divinely inspired", in my belief system, by a supernatural force.
I like your Q & A format.
posted by
Blanche.
on July 16, 2006 at 2:07 PM
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Hello, Nautikos. I wrote a post entitled "Littlewood's Law" that I think
you would find very interesting. I have had MIRACLES in my life, and I attribute them to God, not a formula...although I do find Littlewood's Law very interesting. I can't remember where I posted it; just do a search on Blogit and type in "Littlewood's Law". Now, I'm going to look at your sonnet.
posted by
muser
on July 15, 2006 at 7:25 PM
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Jim,
no, I have not. But to think about the move from illusion to truth might be interesting. The first problem is, of course, that there are many illusions, and there are many truths...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 15, 2006 at 12:21 PM
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I see miracles as
a mere shift in perception from illusion to truth. Have you ever looked at the Course in Miracles?
posted by
Shams-i-Heartsong
on July 15, 2006 at 6:42 AM
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Naut
Thanks for your response to my comment my friend. It is a fascinating subject.
Right now, I am kind of able to shut my mind down about this hydro business, because I am "Expecting A Miracle" kind of thing.
Now as long as I'm expecting I am able to do other things than obsess which in my case is wonderful.
You really are a great writer and I enjoy all you have to say.
posted by
WileyJohn
on July 14, 2006 at 7:08 PM
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Wiley,
I think you have said something very interesting and important here when you write that "believing in miracles let's us move our mind onto other important" things!
Remember I said that for believers to call something a miracle is an explanation of the event. Once you have an explanation, you can forget about it and 'free you mind', as it were. You need not worry about it, fret about it, wonder about 'reasons', and so on. And that may well be an important factor in all this, which I had not really thought of, but you did! 
posted by
Nautikos
on July 13, 2006 at 5:28 AM
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Nautikos
Believing in miracles let's us move our mind onto other important thinking stuff, like paying lawyers and such.
Seriously though, I personally have experienced things in my 70 years that have no other explanation, scientific or even religious, that have been mental miracles for me.
I feel I am a walking miracle but I won't get into that here. Great post my friend, mind expansion is cool
posted by
WileyJohn
on July 12, 2006 at 7:05 PM
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Corbin,
excellent point!
And we can do it with civility and mutual understanding...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 11, 2006 at 4:20 PM
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And to top it off......
We've proven that people with differing views on a specific subject
can carry on an extended exchange of points.
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on July 11, 2006 at 3:48 PM
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LC
you're very welcome! Actually, it helped sharpen my own thinking on this matter, but I fully realize that what I have presented here barely scratches the surface! There is
so much more...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 11, 2006 at 3:33 PM
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Miracles
Naut, very gracious of you to accept my "challenge". I have been asking friends what they thought about this subject since 1st grade. You all had a great blog discussion here and I wish sometimes I had Access to the internet so I can get in on these real time. As usual your insights are great and I now feel I'm up to speed on the way you and millions of folks in your boat feel about miracles.
posted by
LeRoyCoyote
on July 11, 2006 at 10:20 AM
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VickeyJean
thanks for your comment! I can only repeat what I said to SilverMoon, okay, so I repeat myself...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 10, 2006 at 1:20 PM
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SilverMoon,
I have no problem with that! In this post I am not so much dealing with the quality of the 'lived experience', which can find many expressions, but more with trying to grasp intellectually what a 'miracle' is all about...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 10, 2006 at 1:15 PM
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I have those kinds of conversations with myself all the time!
Great way to present your thoughts on the subject. I've had things in my life that I consider miracles...I'm sure a lot of people have...and maybe some were just extremely good luck, but I'm a Christian and I have no problem with seeing God's Hand there. Still, it's nice when nice things happen no matter why!
posted by
VickieJean
on July 10, 2006 at 8:18 AM
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I have to go with Corbin on this one...
I definitely see a "miracle" as being a purely personal thing, religion need not apply. To me, a miracle is something awe-inspiring that moves us to the depths of our beings.
posted by
SilverMoon7
on July 10, 2006 at 7:47 AM
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YPunday,
thanks for the visit and the comments. Democracy & elections? This is gettin' heavy...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 10, 2006 at 7:23 AM
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Wonderful post. I wish U 2 explain differences betw. DEMOCRACY & Elections!
And if you take the time - say, a month -- I know you will do a superb job. o glad to know of your work
posted by
ILLUMINATI8
on July 9, 2006 at 8:59 PM
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Rumored,
hey, you could always give it a whirl...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 9, 2006 at 8:10 PM
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Jane,
I think I'm beyond help! But thanks for the suggestion...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 9, 2006 at 7:57 PM
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Ha ha, my dear Nautikos, there are drugs for
this schizoaffective disorder of yours which may or may not help you!
(But truly, a good post. I would echo Corbin's comments BTW.)
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 9, 2006 at 6:40 PM
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Naut..not going to try to convert you either..:)....a lot of "religious"...
people say we dont need miracles anymore, but as long as there's life there will be a miracle...that probably sounds trite....
posted by
Rumor
on July 9, 2006 at 5:27 PM
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Thanks TAPS,
I know you have a slightly different point of view, which is why your comment is especially welcome...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 9, 2006 at 4:16 PM
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Corbin,
I can appreciate all that, and especially the fact that neither one of us sees the need to convert the other...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 9, 2006 at 4:15 PM
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Nautikos, what a well written post. I love the way you wrote it as an interview.
posted by
TAPS.
on July 9, 2006 at 7:59 AM
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Naut......
I was an agnostic for most of my adult life..........and things just changed for me......I don't want to go into a testimony here.....I don't post on the Religious blog....because I feel my faith is between me and my Lord.
I know that doesn't fit the normal description of a Christian around here....I guess I should be arguing with you and attempting to force you to see the light.......but that's not gonna happen with me......a person will believe when they choose to believe.......or when Christ touches them in his special way.
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on July 9, 2006 at 6:35 AM
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Corbin,
you know what? Strange as it may sound coming from an agnostic, I
fully understand what you mean...in fact, at times
everything is a mystery to me, nor would I hesitate to call it a
miracle, and
mean it, where it not for a lot of baggage that word carries...
posted by
Nautikos
on July 9, 2006 at 6:20 AM
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Naut
Thank you. I do appreciate your viewpoint. This is a very interesting post, you did a great job.
posted by
Justi
on July 9, 2006 at 6:17 AM
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Justi,
without getting into this photon business, let me just say that I can 'explain' a miracle only from the point of view of the agnostic, as an attempt to make sense of the otherwise unexplainable. But I have no doubt that for the believer a miracle can be a very real thing! And that's great! I, unlike many others around here, have no problem with that! The last thing on my mind would be to denigrate faith, as you well know.
posted by
Nautikos
on July 9, 2006 at 6:10 AM
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It all depends of how you faith influences.....
your view of what a miracle is.......
The rising of the morning sun.......A butterfly......the birth of a child......a rainbow.
For me it's a personal thing.......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on July 9, 2006 at 5:39 AM
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Nautikos
Does this Photon that travels through two slits simultaniously do this repeatedly, not just once and for no need on the part of a person?
That may be a mystry, as so many things are. It is not a miracle. A miracle is a need that is filled by a method unknown to that time or often since; an apparent coincidence thta there is simply not any explanation for. These do happen to believers more than non believers but they do happen to non believers as well. One reason I believe they happen to believers is because they put forth an energy in their faith creating a path for the miracle. I know, not think, know they happen.
posted by
Justi
on July 8, 2006 at 10:54 PM
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